Are We Losing Interest?

[walrus]

The other day I had to explain to a twenty something what a crank handle was, then how to use it to manually start a diesel engine, including use of decompression lever and the finer points of removing crank handle before it goes into orbit, breaking arms, etc. I felt very old having to do this.

 

‘’Fast forward - I need a new iphone, I asked twenty something about the new iphone 13…… “no need - you won’t use very much of what is in there” was the reply.

[Old Koreelah]

Yes, the kids of today just don’t seem to understand old technology…

But they sure beat the pants off us old farts with the new stuff:

 

https://www.smh.com.au/national/victoria/meet-the-melbourne-kids-helping-australia-track-the-virus-20210924-p58ul0.html

[walrus]

My sense of the current state is that GA is on an irretrievable downward spiral. GA has no supporters and plenty of detractors. You can start with local government who see airports as prime development land. Then there is the RAAF and RPT crowd who look at anything smaller than a B737 as air pollution. Then there are the nimby/green/ left wing types who hate the idea that anyone should even be able to afford to fly an aircraft.

 

GA has no friends. It is therefore ripe for sacrifice as well as a convenient whipping boy for the public service.’’You can’t win. it’s over.

 

‘’But what about recreational aircraft’?  Give them time. They will #@%@ them too.

Edited September 29, 2021 by walrus

[Thruster88]

5 hours ago, walrus said:

My sense of the current state is that GA is on an irretrievable downward spiral. GA has no supporters and plenty of detractors. You can start with local government who see airports as prime development land. Then there is the RAAF and RPT crowd who look at anything smaller than a B737 as air pollution. Then there are the nimby/green/ left wing types who hate the idea that anyone should even be able to afford to fly an aircraft.

 

GA has no friends. It is therefore ripe for sacrifice as well as a convenient whipping boy for the public service.’’You can’t win. it’s over.

 

‘’But what about recreational aircraft’?  Give them time. They will #@%@ them too.

That's a pretty negative post Walrus. Plenty of us are flying General Aviation which includes RAAus and enjoying it. None of the negatives you mention are impacting me. We are very lucky to have the freedom to fly in Australia. 

 

The latest report from bitre, it shows what is actually happening. 

 https://www.bitre.gov.au/publications/ongoing/general_aviation_activity

 

A pic in case the link doesn't work. Covid had a big impact but not at the fun flying end of the spectrum.  

 

[turboplanner]

7 hours ago, walrus said:

My sense of the current state is that GA is on an irretrievable downward spiral. GA has no supporters and plenty of detractors. You can start with local government who see airports as prime development land. Then there is the RAAF and RPT crowd who look at anything smaller than a B737 as air pollution. Then there are the nimby/green/ left wing types who hate the idea that anyone should even be able to afford to fly an aircraft.

 

GA has no friends. It is therefore ripe for sacrifice as well as a convenient whipping boy for the public service.’’You can’t win. it’s over.

 

‘’But what about recreational aircraft’?  Give them time. They will #@%@ them too.

Interestingly the thread which got you started here has gone offf in a different directon. I notice your old friend gave you a lovely send off.

 

I've mentioned airport movements, I think at Moorabbin and Jandakot, which are healthy. Both airports have considerably expanded since the 1970s and it wouldn't surprise me to see the same percentage improvements in the other capital city airports.

 

As for your "They will #@%@ them too" line - the imaginary "They" says it all. In reality you may just have gone down the wrong path in what you've done, based on your reports over the years, and when that happens in RA it can be a blind alley.

 

I was lucky enough to be at Mangalore in the very early AUF days, and one of the most exciting events I've witnessed in aviation was when the Airshow had a small break, and then what seemed like a scene from Mad Max occured with dozens of these objects all taking off and flying a few feet above the ground on the cross runway. The crowd was amazed. I still have no idea how they all managed to land at the same time, but one minute there was a horde of aircraft and the next minute they had disappeared and the rest of the airshow went on.

 

There is no doubt that RA could be marketed better, starting with an assessment of the current scene which has drifted too close to GA to the point where some people are trying to use the aircraft for long distance touring, and tend to post loudly about their problems. One man drifted west across the Pacific ocean from South America until he found land thousands of kilometres away, proving that it can be done, but that doesn't mean you can knock together a few balsa logs and do your dream trip around the world. 

 

 

 

 

[jackc]

What we know is the good old days, have flown the coop……we will never get them back BUT, we can make the best of what we have today and put our shoulders to the wheel and keep going.  Aviation is suffering cost increases like everything…….I have tried to raise interest in a Foundation Aviation sector in an effort to interest young people in Aviation, but alas……my ideas have led to some people hitting me with a barrage of surface to air missiles 😞  

Aviation has more than its fair share of unethical spivs,  navigating around these people is a problem……just ask me.  Recently had a horrible broker experience.

Our peak body, the RAA seems to be making more rules and adjustments as time goes on,  I suspect driven by some personal egos, but I may be wrong.

I bet that IF i asked to make an appointment with the CEO to discuss some matters, offer some suggestions etc, it could never happen.

WHY?  Because I am probably looked on as a dumb arse who  has been on the scene for all of 5 minutes.  I have a saying……even the ‘Garbage Collector could have something to contribute’

Me?  Just keep my big mouth shut and pay my membership……end of story.

That’s probably what RAA would like of me 😞  

 

 

[turboplanner]

20 minutes ago, jackc said:

What we know is the good old days, have flown the coop……we will never get them back BUT, we can make the best of what we have today and put our shoulders to the wheel and keep going.  

RAA fired up as a result of the South Australian Kindergarten accident in the 1980s which triggered the State Governments to offload risks onto the participants of sports.  When the risks were covered by insurance, sporting bodies found they had a lot more control of their destiny, and most shook off the shackles of being managed by governmet department inspectors who usually weren't interested in the sports. The States adopted the Incorporated Association model to indemnify them from some burdens, and organisations like RAA thrived with massive membership increases  and icon events like Natfly. The switch to RAA Ltd structure hasn't produced the same openness, but of course never could, but many of the freedoms are just sitting there waiting to be used.

20 minutes ago, jackc said:

Aviation is suffering cost increases like everything…….I have tried to raise interest in a Foundation Aviation sector in an effort to interest young people in Aviation, but alas……my ideas have led to some people hitting me with a barrage of surface to air missiles 😞  

Probably because you might be trying to reinvent the wheel. There are foundation classes within RAA Ltd just waiting to be promoted, the structure is there to manage them, just needs someone to be interested.

 

20 minutes ago, jackc said:

Aviation has more than its fair share of unethical spivs,  navigating around these people is a problem……just ask me.  Recently had a horrible broker experience.

Can happen to anyone.

 

20 minutes ago, jackc said:

Our peak body, the RAA seems to be making more rules and adjustments as time goes on,  I suspect driven by some personal egos, but I may be wrong.

We read various claims about more rules all the time, but no one ever seems to quote these new rules, however most of the complainants are guilty of not spending time to actually check the rules, they are trying to do something that was not intended to be done.

20 minutes ago, jackc said:

I bet that IF i asked to make an appointment with the CEO to discuss some matters, offer some suggestions etc, it could never happen.

WHY?  Because I am probably looked on as a dumb arse who  has been on the scene for all of 5 minutes.  I have a saying……even the ‘Garbage Collector could have something to contribute’

Me?  Just keep my big mouth shut and pay my membership……end of story.

That’s probably what RAA would like of me 😞  

It would be better to get something flying first to get some cred. However, there are big gaps between students and pilots, and Instructors, and Instructors and RAA and RAA and the members. In Associations I've run, EVERY Member received a bulletin within a week of every meeting. That way gossip doesn't catch fire. If the members don't like a decision, they'll be emailing and phoning immediately,giving the chance to review the decision, and if necessary amend it, and it's surprising how little it takes to keep the organisation in tune with the members.

 

 

The title is this thread is just feeding the theme of depression, and finding willing evangelists, but as Thruster said the reality is quite different.

 

That doesn't mean RAA shouldn't lift its game, but the freedom is still there for someone to buy or build a grass roots aircraft and go flying.

 

[walrus]

Thruster, Turbo, you both make relevant points. Like Thruster, I too am lucky to be able to fly and am left alone. I also note Turbo’s statistical evidence that not much has changed. I agree. However this doesn’t change the conclusions I have reached. There are two of them:

 

- While statistically not much has changed, that begs the huge question of whether it should have changed by increasing in line with the rest of Australia’s economy as measured by GDP. Australia’s GDP has almost tripled from  2000 to 2019 (from roughly 0.5 to 1.4 trillion). Has the activity of the GA sector tripled even allowing for RAA? I don’t think so. Is there three times the investment, jobs and activity? No. For anecdotal evidence of what a thriving GA sector would look like, visit New Zealand. Clearly we have a problem.

 

- While I am lucky to be left alone to be able to fly, I think it is selfish and dangerous not to be interested and a contributor even in a very small way to policy development. If you don’t do this, you risk being overtaken by events. Furthermore without active scrutiny and robust discussion of industry policy settings, there is a tendency for regulatory sub optimisation - regulators may avoid hard decisions in favor of the line of least resistance or worse, decide to regulate in favor of their own self interest. There is ample evidence in the form of the Forsyth review, the current RRAT work and numerous previous reports as well as the alleged treatment meted out to Glen Buckley and APTA to suggest that there is, euphemistically “room for improvement”.

 

‘’It is axiomatic that unless regulatory activities are scrutinised and challenged the standards of regulation will deteriorate. That ultimately leads to inefficiency, regulatory failure and ultimately corruption. In other words, third world standards.

 

So yes, “I’m all right jack” and not much has changed in my neck of the woods but I can’t help wondering if we are in a fools paradise.

 

 If we don’t critically evaluate and instead do nothing we risk our survival.

 

Edited September 29, 2021 by walrus

[jackc]

Well, the first reason I don’t have something flyable is because of the lack of cred the person had, who worked on it.  Nothing to do with me except I have to fix things properly, you know that’s me the stupid old unqualified fart who has no cred as you say,  Turbs.

Well let me tell you FIGJAM describes me accurately in the eyes of people that know me:-). So, yes I bought another plane so I can fly ASAP, does that show initiative or what?
Being a doer?  I have made personal representations to multi million dollar corporations, Govt Ministers, Defence Dept, Peak Bodies,  the list goes on. MORE than you have had hot dinners.  All done in person, not whimpy emails and phone calls….IN PERSON……in many parts of the World I might add.   Remember Grasshopper…..the letters FIGJAM 🙂

The RAA?  yes they are making changes but it’s all secret squirrel stuff until it finally comes out in print,  they don’t like consulting members very much as they make these changes…….the very failings of a good peak body.

 

[turboplanner]

43 minutes ago, walrus said:

- While statistically not much has changed, that begs the huge question of whether it should have changed by increasing in line with the rest of Australia’s economy as measured by GDP. Australia’s GDP has almost tripled from  2000 to 2019 (from roughly 0.5 to 1.4 trillion). Has the activity of the GA sector tripled even allowing for RAA? I don’t think so. Is there three times the investment, jobs and activity? No. For anecdotal evidence of what a thriving GA sector would look like, visit New Zealand. Clearly we have a problem.

Good point, I hadn't matched it to GDP.

43 minutes ago, walrus said:

 

- While I am lucky to be left alone to be able to fly, I think it is selfish and dangerous not to be interested and a contributor even in a very small way to policy development. If you don’t do this, you risk being overtaken by events. Furthermore without active scrutiny and robust discussion of industry policy settings, there is a tendency for regulatory sub optimisation - regulators may avoid hard decisions in favor of the line of least resistance or worse, decide to regulate in favor of their own self interest.

Very much so and one of the key reasons RAA Inc members drifted off the centreline, starting with not bothering to vote.

43 minutes ago, walrus said:

There is ample evidence in the form of the Forsyth review

Forget the Forsyth review; everyone else did five minutes after it landed. Political change doesn't happen that way. Same for the other red herring where a Senator asked a Committe Chairman for leave to ask some questions, and people of social media elevated that to a "Senate Inquiry"

 

43 minutes ago, walrus said:

 the current RRAT work and numerous previous reports as well as the alleged treatment meted out to Glen Buckley and APTA to suggest that there is, euphemistically “room for improvement”.

RRAT is too broad for what you want to see; I'm not aware of the fine details on Glen Buckley and APTA but again there are places where those issues can and should be resolved other than social media.

43 minutes ago, walrus said:

‘’It is axiomatic that unless regulatory activities are scrutinised and challenged the standards of regulation will deteriorate. That ultimately leads to inefficiency, regulatory failure and ultimately corruption. In other words, third world standards.

Not sure whether you are referring to GA or RA here, but I agree with you, but notice that very few people participate when new regulations go out for public consultation. It's usually after the consultation period has closed that social media comes a live with expert opinions on how the regulation was wrong or how it should have been written. That's not the fault of the regulators or SAOs; they did their job. There's one doosie still producing regular posts even though the public comment period closed some years ago.

43 minutes ago, walrus said:

 

So yes, “I’m all right jack” and not much has changed in my neck of the woods but I can’t help wondering if we are in a fools paradise.

 If we don’t critically evaluate and instead do nothing we risk our survival.

People who go through the training they are required to do, and that training includes all the theory training required to use Australian airspace, not just which lever to pull, and who qualify for the type of flying they want to do, and who find an affordable way to fly, and that may include building an aircraft, buying an aircraft, hiring an aircraft and get enjoyment out of it are not living in a fools paradise, they are living in the flying scene of the 21st century.

That will be different to the "joyflight" era of aerobatics and landing beside swamps to shoot ducks in the 1920s and 30s, different to the 1950's with combat trained instructors teaching fyling skills to minute levels of perfection, the 1960s "aerial family cars" era sold so well by people like Arthur Schutt who was likely to land in your front paddock unannounced and take you up for a flight, the 1970's cross country flying boom where a flight might be Sydney - Andamooka or Melbourne - Gove from single city runways. Today we have dual runways and different destinations, different aspirations. You work with what you have.

[turboplanner]

1 hour ago, jackc said:

Well, the first reason I don’t have something flyable is because of the lack of cred the person had, who worked on it.  Nothing to do with me except I have to fix things properly, you know that’s me the stupid old unqualified fart who has no cred as you say,  Turbs.

What was the problem? As an L1 you can fix it, but I wouldn't  immediately classify that as an Industry problem.

1 hour ago, jackc said:

Well let me tell you FIGJAM describes me accurately in the eyes of people that know me:-). So, yes I bought another plane so I can fly ASAP, does that show initiative or what?

Nothing wrong with having multiple aircraft; quite a few do.

1 hour ago, jackc said:

Being a doer?  I have made personal representations to multi million dollar corporations, Govt Ministers, Defence Dept, Peak Bodies,  the list goes on. MORE than you have had hot dinners.  All done in person, not whimpy emails and phone calls….IN PERSON……in many parts of the World I might add.   Remember Grasshopper…..the letters FIGJAM 🙂

The RAA?  yes they are making changes but it’s all secret squirrel stuff until it finally comes out in print,  they don’t like consulting members very much as they make these changes…….the very failings of a good peak body.

 

You could be a rock star, but if you're flying an RA aircraft you have to find a way to work with RAA Ltd. The Members by their vote abandoned a working RAA Inc. where committee members were geographically spread to interface with the members, and went for a Limited Company on the grounds that RAA wasn't a cricket club, and thousands of members just wanted the certificate to fly without managing their own destiny. I agree with you the consulting with the members makes a good peak body, but the members voted not to do that, so RAA is a bit like the farmer who sells his stock  or wool through Elders; he needs them to make the sale and get his income, but his only way to change how they operate is to put up a motion at the AGM.

[jackc]

Trouble is….I cannot become an L1 without an RPC…..stupid I know.

So, I will do all my work have it inspected, correct where needed and get engineer to sign off on it. 

Changing the RAA to what it always should have stayed would be harder than trying to tow start a concrete 747.  

First up we need to analyse the RAA and look for its benefits AND deficiencies, THEN we need to see IF a plan can be made to make it better….might even benefit members 🙂   Slutting, moaning and groaning here does nothing……

We need to make a plan and a heap of us roll up to Canberra and seek a meeting.

Just let me know when to hire a coach and do a pick up run from Qld to Canberra.

Anyone wanna come for a ride, lockdowns not withstanding 🙂 

NO guts…..No glory, No legend…..No story!

 

[turboplanner]

2 minutes ago, jackc said:

Changing the RAA to what it always should have stayed would be harder than trying to tow start a concrete 747.  

Technically it's very straightforward.

However, the members would have to step forward, and THAT's what's like trying to tow start a concrete 747.

Ultimately you have to draw the conclusion that tens of thousands of members don't want to change things.

2 minutes ago, jackc said:

 Slutting, moaning and groaning here does nothing……

Correct.

[Old Koreelah]

3 hours ago, turboplanner said:

… In Associations I've run, EVERY Member received a bulletin within a week of every meeting. That way gossip doesn't catch fire.

Technology makes it easy to keep everyone in the loop, but it can lead to unforeseen results. I’m secretary of a couple of organisations and at the end of each meeting get someone nearby to chech that my minutes are corect. That takes a minute or two while people are socialising. Then I instantly send the minutes to all members via group email.

 

One night I got a mate in trouble because his wife saw the email come in and when he eventually got home she demanded to know where he’d been- the meeting finished hours ago!

[dreemhi]

I have followed this thread with interest and come to the conclusion that in regard to RAAus about 10% of members are fervently in favour of the direction of the organisation, 10% are against and 80% couldn't give a damn. So, I think the question is really, when did we lose interest?  I came over to the ultralight side in 2005.  GA had become too expensive and was on the decline.  For the next couple of years it seemed to me that flying ultralights was exciting and growing.  People were trying to develop Australian aircraft, Gary Morgan's Diamond single seater, the Sapphire was popular and Jabiru was on it's way to becoming world class benchmark.  10 years or so later and it felt like it had all changed, the enthusiasm seemed to drain away.  Natfly fell by the wayside not long after CASA started doing ramp checks.  When Jabiru had problems did Casa approach them and say "how can we help solve these problems" no, they nearly put them out of business. I think the answer to this is that RAAus needs to look at it's attitude to it's members.  A classic example is the current Sports Pilot magazine, it is without a doubt a beautifully and professionally prepared publication but is relevant to about the 10% of members who could afford the plastic fantastics advertised within.  I'd be happy with a cheap paper publication with a great deal more emphasis on low cost flying presented in an encouraging way.  David

[spenaroo]

so this is my views and experience,

the club culture is changing, there is a lot going on in our lives. The local flight school runs two barbecues I know of, one on Sunday that the old guys attend. and another on Monday nights as part of a study group - this seems to be a mixture, but more young people. which makes sense as we are all in the beginning of our journey. the facebook group for the study sessions is fairly active with young people.

Reason for flying - its interesting that whenever we talk about what we want to do at the flight school. however I seem to be the only one who doesn't want to do anything with it. most seem to be wanting to get into the commercial or the PPL side of things. (also seems to be a lot of teens learning to fly when im in the waiting room, but I personally haven't seen the early 20's in the waiting room with me)

biggest reason I see is the investment, not just money (which when an hour of dual, is the same cost as my weeks rent is pretty prohibitive)
but time, the level of training needed just to go for a couple of circuits solo is considerable. to someone that can only afford to do a lesson every week or two its a long process. sure the minimums are 25 hours... but thats unrealistic unless you can do multiple lessons a week - something young people just don't have time for when working full time and establishing careers. and thats not taking into account the travel time to get to an airfield.
Im 2 years into training now, its an ongoing commitment and one that is hard to keep with life changes. its also 2 years of my financial future Ive sacrificed to do it.

and then when you have your RPC/RPL (and lets face it the only difference now is the extra few bucks to hire the bigger plane, and a few maths questions on the exam) you are restricted to joy flights in the area around the airfield. trying telling that to people... I spent 15K to get my license and now I can fly the plane, as long as I'm always 30mins from the airport. which is something ill only do once a month - and cause I'll still be renting still need regular check rides. (which is fine, its all I want to do - but try to see that from an average person)

then there is the costs to continue to fly. and love to have my own plane, but most of the low budget stuff that would suit the Sunday flyer who just wants to be airborne for an hour and is comparable in price to a "weekend toy" (motorcycle/boat/car lets say $20K) is tail-wheel.... Its an extra endorsement and one you have to go looking for and travel to get.

the Value just isnt there, for recreational flying there needs to be bang for buck. and there is too much bucks for a limited bang.
it isn't accessible as a Hobby anymore, and its not geared towards that. Id be interested to see how gliding compares as its something that people go into without the end goal of doing trips to remote parts of Australia or as a career. maybe look at that as a model to follow.

lets compare it to boating (my family's hobby). its $300 for the license, the boat is 10-20K - but you can store it in the backyard.
servicing is minimal and any mechanic can do it. there is still the travel to water. but I can have as many people as I like come along.
so it now turns into time with family and friends, so its easy to justify as opposed to just myself.

[FlyBoy1960]

1 hour ago, dreemhi said:

A classic example is the current Sports Pilot magazine, it is without a doubt a beautifully and professionally prepared publication but is relevant to about the 10% of members who could afford the plastic fantastics advertised within. 

 

 

people selling the cheaper aircraft are obviously not making as much money and therefore can't afford to run the expensive advertising that somebody selling a really expensive aircraft could afford.

 

My friend (whose name I can't mention here for some reason) at the airport who sells X-Air's said that he made only just under $1800 on a $20,000 X-Air aircraft. From this he had to take importation costs and other hidden importation fees and in the end it was only about $800-$1000 profit per aircraft.

 

It costs more than that to put an ad in the magazine every month so he would have to sell at least one aircraft a month just to pay for the advertising, hardly a successful business model.

 

This is the reason why people are not advertising entry-level aircraft in the RA-Aus. There is just no money in it, by the time they get a bit of transport damage or something else which is not covered under insurance or warranty you can sell an aircraft and go backwards I am guessing.

[spenaroo]

seems one of the themes here is that the vocal majority are older flyers,

makes sense that they would want the benefits of GA, without the risks of medicals revoking their status
(arguably the medicals is less of a risk to younger flyers)

I wonder what the shift of direction would be if RAA had the same medical requirements as GA?

[facthunter]

Don't even think of it. The medical thing has been all over the place. GA planes are cheaper than some RAAus ones.. I bought my Citabria in beautiful condition for under 50K.   The medicals hark back to services days and don't guarantee not having a medical event and encourage non disclosure.. 

  Good to hear some of these opinions. Flying always COST quite a lot of money and there has to be more than just coming there doing a bit of local flying and going home. . Even Aero Clubs focus on the big spenders. Nev

[jackc]

2 hours ago, spenaroo said:

so this is my views and experience,

the club culture is changing, there is a lot going on in our lives. The local flight school runs two barbecues I know of, one on Sunday that the old guys attend. and another on Monday nights as part of a study group - this seems to be a mixture, but more young people. which makes sense as we are all in the beginning of our journey. the facebook group for the study sessions is fairly active with young people.

Reason for flying - its interesting that whenever we talk about what we want to do at the flight school. however I seem to be the only one who doesn't want to do anything with it. most seem to be wanting to get into the commercial or the PPL side of things. (also seems to be a lot of teens learning to fly when im in the waiting room, but I personally haven't seen the early 20's in the waiting room with me)

biggest reason I see is the investment, not just money (which when an hour of dual, is the same cost as my weeks rent is pretty prohibitive)
but time, the level of training needed just to go for a couple of circuits solo is considerable. to someone that can only afford to do a lesson every week or two its a long process. sure the minimums are 25 hours... but thats unrealistic unless you can do multiple lessons a week - something young people just don't have time for when working full time and establishing careers. and thats not taking into account the travel time to get to an airfield.
Im 2 years into training now, its an ongoing commitment and one that is hard to keep with life changes. its also 2 years of my financial future Ive sacrificed to do it.

and then when you have your RPC/RPL (and lets face it the only difference now is the extra few bucks to hire the bigger plane, and a few maths questions on the exam) you are restricted to joy flights in the area around the airfield. trying telling that to people... I spent 15K to get my license and now I can fly the plane, as long as I'm always 30mins from the airport. which is something ill only do once a month - and cause I'll still be renting still need regular check rides. (which is fine, its all I want to do - but try to see that from an average person)

then there is the costs to continue to fly. and love to have my own plane, but most of the low budget stuff that would suit the Sunday flyer who just wants to be airborne for an hour and is comparable in price to a "weekend toy" (motorcycle/boat/car lets say $20K) is tail-wheel.... Its an extra endorsement and one you have to go looking for and travel to get.

the Value just isnt there, for recreational flying there needs to be bang for buck. and there is too much bucks for a limited bang.
it isn't accessible as a Hobby anymore, and its not geared towards that. Id be interested to see how gliding compares as its something that people go into without the end goal of doing trips to remote parts of Australia or as a career. maybe look at that as a model to follow.

lets compare it to boating (my family's hobby). its $300 for the license, the boat is 10-20K - but you can store it in the backyard.
servicing is minimal and any mechanic can do it. there is still the travel to water. but I can have as many people as I like come along.
so it now turns into time with family and friends, so its easy to justify as opposed to just myself.

And this is why we need a U.S. FAR Part 103 category for a Foundation Aviation sector.  RAA Flying Schools are up around $320 per hour dual instruction with $150k plus aircraft value now……..

I am sure the principle is workable in Australia…….but RAA would sh1tcan it with a vengeance to protect their ‘patch’ 

Flight Training and aircraft are at a cost that many more budding aviators could afford.

Its almost worth forming an organisation to lobby for a FAR Part 103 aligned sector in Australia.  Publicity and lobbying politicians etc to see IF it’s a possibility.

We would not even think of using the RAAUS model.   
I know this will draw flak, but it’s almost to a stage where I feel like putting my money where my mouth is and start something……

[Flightrite]

Flying planes has always been a luxury, been doing it 42 years (although some reckon I'm not even a pilot😁😉 so I hope that bugs you fools😁), hate to imagine what I've spent on flying but I guess I'll keep on spending! RA is the same as GA in the scheme of things, just some diff regs/rules.

The hobby/pastime (& that's all it is till you go CPL) is getting more expensive and fewer people are taking it up.

It's voluntary to fly GA for that you have to accept that it's run & watched by at times incompetence & shear obstructionist rules!

 

Edited September 30, 2021 by Flightrite

[jackc]

1 hour ago, spenaroo said:

seems one of the themes here is that the vocal majority are older flyers,

makes sense that they would want the benefits of GA, without the risks of medicals revoking their status
(arguably the medicals is less of a risk to younger flyers)

I wonder what the shift of direction would be if RAA had the same medical requirements as GA?

I would never want GA even IF someone offered me a free plane 🙂  Must admit I have had more than passing glances at Cubs, Aviat Husky’s etc 🙂  I am sure IF medicals are made unfairly onerous the people would break rules as they do now…..but maybe even more. 

If a person can legally drive a car…..then that should be good enough for RPC forever and a day as it is now…..

IF RAA want to make life difficult in the future for medicals…….and I would like to think they would not go there.

Just abandon them rip your rego numbers off your plane and go fly the thing IF the rule makers make it too hard.

Many thousands of square kilometres in Qld to fly and not be seen by the regulators…….happens now anyway, but could become more common IF regulators make life hard.

[Bruce Tuncks]

Jackc, be aware of the saga of that lot who tried to start up in opposition to RAAus. I think they were shut down (by just ignoring their correspondence ) by CASA. I sent them some money as a donation.

Personally, I don't blame the RAAus. I think of them as like the capos in the prison camps, only a lot better. They have no choice but to dance to their master's tune.

It has always been thus, apparently " fear of falling " is the only innate fear among new-borns.

This makes sense if you remember we had some important evolution while in the trees. Gosh its a pity that CASA types find it all too easy to manipulate this fear into a bigger and more powerful bureaucracy.

[pmccarthy]

I have have 51 years in GA and 28 years in RAA flying. Both are good and enjoyable. I sold an RA plane five years ago to buy a GA plane and am still ahead financially. But I will be buying an RA plane to escape from the demands of CASA AVMED next year. I like to fly, but I really like to fly to new places with family and friends. I am hoping that one of my grandchildren, at least, will follow in my footsteps.

[jackc]

It’s not about starting an opposition organisation to RAA.  It would be nice IF RAA would accommodate the FAR Part 103 regime?  I suspect organisational egos would not allow it.  It’s not about offering to start an alternative to RAA.

Its more about a parallel organisation with the common interest of Aviation, being in association with RAA, CASA, SAAA, AOPA et al.  IF the organisations could all work for the common good of ALL aviation, that would be a bonus:-)