Another stall spin crash (usa)

[Mike Gearon]

18 minutes ago, kgwilson said:

Click quote & it appears in your post in its own box. Type your own comments under the box. Edit out parts of the quote by highlighting the text and pressing delete. Delete the entire quote by highlighting all the text & pressing delete, then right click & select back. The quote is gone. This works for a PC. Not sure about tablets & smaller. 

Same. I’m using an IPad. All works the same..I’d started to write a similar post then wasn’t sure exactly what F10 was asking because I noticed previous quotes where this was deftly handled…. Then, I went to delete and found you can’t so just removed my text then noticed you’d gone grrr in another thread about inability to delete. 😀

Yeah, it’d be nice to have a few minutes to delete. Understood though, the remnants remain in peoples email inboxes.

[APenNameAndThatA]

How about, you are doing power-off stalls, you stall, you spin, and add power because that is how you recover from a stall, can't recover from the spin, and crash? To me, the obvious connection between power on and a spin (6:23), is not a power-on stall, but a stall followed by power on. Weird how the prop was full coarse, but. 

[APenNameAndThatA]

On 25/4/2022 at 10:10 AM, Thruster88 said:

IMHO knowing how to recover from a spin is only useful for pilots who are going to intentionally spin their aircraft. No one accidentally enters a spin during cruise flight when there might be enough height for recovery. Stall spin accidents happen in agricultural ops, initial climb and circuit ops, following engine failure at low level and manoeuvring near rising terrain. In these cases there is nearly always insufficient altitude for a recovery even by the ace of the base, however not flying the aircraft at less than best climb, best glide speed always works. These two speeds are called best because they give the best performance in each case, no need to ever fly slower than 1.4 time stall speed.

Well, the guy in the Bonanza video needed to know how to recover from a spin. Also, if you mess up a flat turn turning on to final, you might get to the incipient spin phase quickly, in which case, you are better off leaving the power off (spin recovery) rather than adding power (stall recovery). It's weird, I couldn't make a Decathlon spin trying to imitate a flat turn onto final, but apparently a C172 can bite fast. Entering a spin at 500 ft would not be good, but if you begin to recover you are going to hit the ground slower. If you are losing 1000 fpm when you hit, the vertical component of your crash will only be 20 kph. 

[djpacro]

12 hours ago, F10 said:

... ideally, get the stick forward of neutral. ....

Most aircraft should recover. In a fully developed spin, most aircraft should recover, with controls held neutral, otherwise to me, they should not have been certified.

 

Forward of neutral - really?

 

Sure, there are some types which will recover from a fully developed spin with controls neutral however many will not. Not true regarding certification requirements eg FAA AC 23-8C.

[APenNameAndThatA]

15 minutes ago, djpacro said:

Forward of neutral - really?

 

Sure, there are some types which will recover from a fully developed spin with controls neutral however many will not. Not true regarding certification requirements eg FAA AC 23-8C.

I thought that in order to be certified, an aircraft needed to recover using PARE. 

[APenNameAndThatA]

On 25/4/2022 at 10:10 AM, Thruster88 said:

IMHO knowing how to recover from a spin is only useful for pilots who are going to intentionally spin their aircraft. No one accidentally enters a spin during cruise flight when there might be enough height for recovery. Stall spin accidents happen in agricultural ops, initial climb and circuit ops, following engine failure at low level and manoeuvring near rising terrain. In these cases there is nearly always insufficient altitude for a recovery even by the ace of the base, however not flying the aircraft at less than best climb, best glide speed always works. These two speeds are called best because they give the best performance in each case, no need to ever fly slower than 1.4 time stall speed.

The devil is in the details, so they say. The detail here is the space between the stall and the spin. You would not need to be the ace of the base to recover from an incipient spin in 500 ft. 

[djpacro]

22 hours ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

I thought that in order to be certified, an aircraft needed to recover using PARE. 

Well, yes and no. Per FAA AC23-8C: 

Quote

Recoveries should consist of throttle reduced to idle, ailerons neutralized, full opposite rudder, followed by forward elevator control as required to get the wing out of stall and recover to level flight. For acrobatic category spins, the manufacturer may establish additional recovery procedures, provided they show compliance for those procedures with this section.

For example, the Pitts S-2A has this cockpit placard:

 

[onetrack]

Some worthy reading in the link below. Know your aircrafts capabilities thoroughly, and don't try to push the envelope, is the message I'd take home from this article.

 

https://www.flightsafetyaustralia.com/2015/09/into-the-woods/

[facthunter]

Shielded and a Too small rudder and short moment arm. Ironically the paint scheme shows the rudder shielding by the horizontal stabiliser. Idling engines often stall in a spin depending on the direction of rotation of the spin and the propeller.(not that that had anything to do with the outcome but may have added to the pressure on the pilot). .ALL planes spin differently. There are NO universal rules for a recovery. It's called AUTO-rotation because what it's doing is not caused by the "current" controls position.  Airspeed doesn't build up in a spin no matter how long you remain in it.. Leave the spin testing to qualified pilots with a parachute,and lots of height. There's every chance no one could recover that plane regardless of their experience.   Nev

[Garfly]

Flywire's follow-up video:

 

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

It was encouraging to hear that skilled, seasoned pilot “chicken out” of actually demonstrating the powered stall he had planned. Most of my planned stall exercises have ended up with me wimping out after tickling the dragon.
A very experienced STOL and ag pilot asked me why I’d try it; he never stalls.

 

To stay alive you can’t beat good design: having plenty of rudder under the tailplane as well as above it, plus mounting the whole empenage sufficiently far back.  

[APenNameAndThatA]

Stalls are scarier than spins. There's your proof. 😀

[F10]

13 hours ago, Old Koreelah said:

To stay alive you can’t beat good design: having plenty of rudder under the tailplane as well as above it, plus mounting the whole empenage sufficiently far back.  

Yes, Chipmunk, PC9, are examples of a common design feature, to avoid rudder blanking by having the vertical fin, located further ahead of the horizontal tail plane. Known as tail plane stagger.

[F10]

On 27/4/2022 at 11:37 AM, djpacro said:

Quote

Recoveries should consist of throttle reduced to idle, ailerons neutralized, full opposite rudder, followed by forward elevator control as required to get the wing out of stall and recover to level flight. For acrobatic category spins, the manufacturer may establish additional recovery procedures, provided they show compliance for those procedures with this section.

For example, the Pitts S-2A has this cockpit placard:

 

Aileron application can complicate things, but they have interesting effects relating to moments of inertia. This has to do with classic gyroscopic precession. In a steady spin, the pitching moment of inertia has built up. We have a heavy fuselage, pitching constantly, or in effect, rotating nose up. Hold a bicycle wheel out in front of you. Spin it towards you (nose up in other words), now, once spinning, “bank” the wheel (tilt) it over. You will feel, your tilt force, becomes a twist or yaw force, due to gyroscopic precession. If you don’t believe me, let go of one side of your wheel, it won’t fall over, but will rotate around. Yes, you need to spin it quite fast, but a few thousand kilograms of fuselage pitching at 15 degrees a second, has the same effect.
 

In the Mirage 111, you banked the aircraft into the spin by matching the yellow stripes on the stick, to the yellow stripes on the cockpit sills, for recovery. This was using gyroscopic precession on the fuselage pitch moment of inertia, to yaw the aircraft out the spin. The Mirage 111 having a far higher mass in the fuselage, compared to the wings. Weapons on the wings of fighters can radically alter spin recovery characteristics of course.

 

Unusual in that normally aerodynamic forces are used for spin recovery, but not in this case. Delta wings do have very high rates of yaw, compared to roll, as an autorotation characteristic. Also, the Mirage rolled at 720 degrees a second, it was tricky to discern when it had recovered from the spin, because having the stick hard over, would be rolling it on recovery!

 

I never flew Mirages, but have chatted to mates who did. I have spun, autorotated and g-stalled Harvards, more times than I care to remember, in the SAAF. She loved dropping a wing on you!

 

As far as getting the stick forward, you need to make sure you have installed the aircraft, so, keep moving it forward till you do (no more heavy buffet). Stall recoveries normally don’t require you to shove the stick fully forward. But do what you need to do, or your flight manual says to do. If the ground is close, use the space you have, to pull out. Stalling the aircraft again, being in too much of a hurry to pull out, can really ruin your day. Easier said than done, I know.

[Thruster88]

On 26/04/2022 at 1:35 PM, APenNameAndThatA said:

The devil is in the details, so they say. The detail here is the space between the stall and the spin. You would not need to be the ace of the base to recover from an incipient spin in 500 ft. 

The problem is the difference between an intentional stall which we can all do, versus an unintended stall occurring while the pilot is distracted by a moose, engine failure, rising terrain, sick passenger or some other issue. As flywires vid shows the time from stall to wing drop and rotation is not long more so in high performance aircraft, a distracted pilot could be a quarter turn into a spin before the shock/denial is overcome and a recovery is initiated. The only sure way to avoid dying in a stall spin "accident" is fly correct airspeed. We learn the aviate, navigate, communicate order of priority in any stressful situation, the most important aspect of aviate is airspeed.  

[APenNameAndThatA]

8 hours ago, Thruster88 said:

The problem is the difference between an intentional stall which we can all do, versus an unintended stall occurring while the pilot is distracted by a moose, engine failure, rising terrain, sick passenger or some other issue. As flywires vid shows the time from stall to wing drop and rotation is not long more so in high performance aircraft, a distracted pilot could be a quarter turn into a spin before the shock/denial is overcome and a recovery is initiated. The only sure way to avoid dying in a stall spin "accident" is fly correct airspeed. We learn the aviate, navigate, communicate order of priority in any stressful situation, the most important aspect of aviate is airspeed.  

The above is certainly true. 

[Garfly]

And, as they used to tell it ....

 

 

[Flightrite]

At the end of the day……don’t stall, don’t spin, simple basic words👍

[Thruster88]

There is probably more value in watching a few videos like this than going out and practicing stalls.

 

General aviation will still be doing this in 20 years time unlike the airlines that learn from mistakes and implement changes.

 

 

Edited April 30, 2022 by Thruster88

[Student Pilot]

23 hours ago, Flightrite said:

At the end of the day……don’t stall, don’t spin, simple basic words👍

Agreed.......

Know your aircraft and it's foibles at slow speed.

 

[derekliston]

5 hours ago, Student Pilot said:

Agreed.......

Know your aircraft and it's foibles at slow speed.

 

Always remember reading the 3 rules for stalling a DC3…… 1) Don’t stall 2)Don’t stall 3)Don’t stall

[APenNameAndThatA]

People are saying to maintain your airspeed, and that is the long and the short of it. That is true. BUT the central principle of safety is to have backups so that if one thing goes wrong something else will prevent an accident. That is the basis of the Swiss cheese model, where, if the holes line up, an accident happens. So, the safe thing to do is concentrate on airspeed AND recovering from stalls and from spins.

 

People who have done spin training reckon it is useful. People who haven’t don spin training reckon it isn’t. What does that tell you?

 

Benefits if spinning includes making it less likely that you will freeze if you get out of usual attitude. And it makes that zone between stalling and spinning less mysterious. The way people on here talk, you’d think there was no space between stall and spin. 

 

Another way of looking at this is that since people are still dying from stall and spin, whatever the training there probs should be more. The more/better the training, the safer you are. 

 

 

[Garfly]

2 hours ago, derekliston said:

Always remember reading the 3 rules for stalling a DC3…… 1) Don’t stall 2)Don’t stall 3)Don’t stall

You mean like ...

 

 

[derekliston]

5 hours ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

People are saying to maintain your airspeed, and that is the long and the short of it. That is true. BUT the central principle of safety is to have backups so that if one thing goes wrong something else will prevent an accident. That is the basis of the Swiss cheese model, where, if the holes line up, an accident happens. So, the safe thing to do is concentrate on airspeed AND recovering from stalls and from spins.

 

People who have done spin training reckon it is useful. People who haven’t don spin training reckon it isn’t. What does that tell you?

 

Benefits if spinning includes making it less likely that you will freeze if you get out of usual attitude. And it makes that zone between stalling and spinning less mysterious. The way people on here talk, you’d think there was no space between stall and spin. 

 

Another way of looking at this is that since people are still dying from stall and spin, whatever the training there probs should be more. The more/better the training, the safer you are. 

 

 

When I did my UK PPL around 1978 spin recovery was a requirement of the flight test ( I believe it no longer is?) that was in a C150 aerobat, I have also done spins in a Decathlon (fairly comfortable!) and a Victa Airtourer (fast and unpleasant!) I think spin training is worthwhile but, apart from the fact it is not legal anyway, I have no inclination to find out if or how my Zenith CH701 spins or recovers!

[F10]

Unload, unload, unload. Keep sucking that stick back…because the windscreen is full of paddock….and it’s the end.