Another stall spin crash (usa)

[facthunter]

The instinct to pull the stick back causes most of the problem. Planes don't stall by themselves.(unless the load shifts or some other change of significance happens, Trim failure). Nev

[djpacro]

On 28/04/2022 at 9:25 AM, Old Koreelah said:

It was encouraging to hear that skilled, seasoned pilot “chicken out” of actually demonstrating the powered stall he had planned. .....

I know of some instructors who chicken out of required flight exercises for an RPL per Part 61 (see attached image). I see that the RPC syllabus is far less comprehensive. I see some aeroplanes used in training that are prohibited from accelerated stalls so unable to do all of the required Part 61 stall exercises.

 

22 hours ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

Benefits if spinning includes making it less likely that you will freeze if you get out of usual attitude. And it makes that zone between stalling and spinning less mysterious. The way people on here talk, you’d think there was no space between stall and spin. 

 

Another way of looking at this is that since people are still dying from stall and spin, whatever the training there probs should be more. The more/better the training, the safer you are. 

 

 

Seems like an argument for UPRT. See https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/files/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/airplane_handbook/06_afh_ch5.pdf

 

There is no space between stall and spin. Suggest that you read the reference above - the pages on stalling are followed by pages on spinning. There is a stall recovery template and a spin recovery template, nothing in between.

[djpacro]

delete

Edited May 2, 2022 by djpacro
sorry, post ended up duplicated

[djpacro]

delete

Edited May 2, 2022 by djpacro
sorry, post ended up duplicated

[APenNameAndThatA]

51 minutes ago, djpacro said:

I know of some instructors who chicken out of required flight exercises for an RPL per Part 61 (see attached image). I see that the RPC syllabus is far less comprehensive. I see some aeroplanes used in training that are prohibited from accelerated stalls so unable to do all of the required Part 61 stall exercises.

 

Seems like an argument for UPRT. See https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/files/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/airplane_handbook/06_afh_ch5.pdf

 

There is no space between stall and spin. Suggest that you read the reference above - the pages on stalling are followed by pages on spinning. There is a stall recovery template and a spin recovery template, nothing in between.

Excellent. Now can you tell me *exactly* where it is that a stall ends and a spin starts? 

[djpacro]

11 minutes ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

Excellent. Now can you tell me *exactly* where it is that a stall ends and a spin starts? 

See my earlier post for the definition of a spin hence the start of a spin.

Cessna's spin document is consistent https://mikeklochcfi.files.wordpress.com/2018/03/cessna-spin-manual.pdf

 

 

 

[facthunter]

The reference(s) are quite comprehensive, for stall including use of power in the recovery and mentions ENERGY from height loss and/or power.. Numerous times on this forum I've referred to energy management and NEVER a comment comes forth.. Nev

[jackc]

The message I get is quite simply NEVER stall your aircraft, alway practice safe flying……..

[Ignition]

I feel like one of the contributors to unintended stalls is literally the term 'stall speed' - people thinking they are safe just because they are flying above what they believe to be the 'stall speed' despite the fact you can stall a Jabiru/Cessna (take your pick) at 40kts and at 100kts.

But like... you can't stall if you don't exceed the critical angle of attack.

[facthunter]

Most pilots I fly with are dead scared of slow flying but the INSTINCTIVE thing is to pull back on the stick when the nose drops. Same with a dropped wing. Use of aileron when you are too slow. Also the ACTUAL weight you have can vary a lot on an Ultralight  as a % and that affects stall speed on any aircraft. Precise control of airspeed is essential at the latter part of an approach to suit the conditions. Large amounts of flap reduce the acceleration when power is applied. Nev

[Thruster88]

1 hour ago, Ignition said:

I feel like one of the contributors to unintended stalls is literally the term 'stall speed' - people thinking they are safe just because they are flying above what they believe to be the 'stall speed' despite the fact you can stall a Jabiru/Cessna (take your pick) at 40kts and at 100kts.

But like... you can't stall if you don't exceed the critical angle of attack.

From my reading of accident reports, the accelerated stalls nearly always involve some type of hooning. The big pull following the low pass of a friends house etc. Not sure we can help that type of pilot. Fortunately this type of stall spin is not so common.  

[Thruster88]

On 01/05/2022 at 3:32 PM, APenNameAndThatA said:

 

 

Benefits if spinning includes making it less likely that you will freeze if you get out of usual attitude. And it makes that zone between stalling and spinning less mysterious. The way people on here talk, you’d think there was no space between stall and spin. 

 

Another way of looking at this is that since people are still dying from stall and spin, whatever the training there probs should be more. The more/better the training, the safer you are. 

 

 

The requirement for spin training went away some time before I got my PPL in 1994. From reading historical ATSB accident investigations 

https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/safety-investigation-reports.aspx?mode=Aviation&sort=OccurrenceReleaseDate&sortDecending=decending&printAll=true

It would seem like the stall spin training was of little use in preventing this type of accident. I don't believe airline pilots do stalls or spins even in the simulator, they just fly correct airspeed.  

[Garfly]

But with humans, there are going to be factors. 

Being determined never to stall (without meaning to) makes perfect sense. 

But having the muscle memory to save the day IF you do, is still a basic piloting skill.

 

Remember this one:

 

 

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[Thruster88]

I guess we should add red tailed hawks to the list of distractions.  

[jackc]

Or, Willie Wagtails below 500ft 🙂

[Garfly]

Birdwatching aside, let's say you're on a right downwind to an unfamiliar bush strip and you reckon you're about ready to turn base but now you've lost sight of the strip behind; you crane your neck around the right-hand pax to regain the threshold but as you do, you don't notice that you're tugging a little on the already back-trimmed stick, and with eyes now back out front it's all a bit mushier and tippier and quieter than normal ...

 

Yes, I know, Lesson One: pay full attention to the job of flying whenever low and slow.  But Lesson Two might be what to do if L1 goes AWOL.   IMHO, a muscle memory for immediate pushing-and-footing will work better than the default: pulling-and-screaming.

 

In a car, it's the opposite problem.  Wise words for new drivers are  'Don't speed and you won't skid'.

Still, advanced driving courses are available for those who want to be ready.

 

I reckon, in those situations, it'll be the first moments after (during?) 'Oh sh!t' that'll save - or spoil - the day. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 4, 2022 by Garfly

[Flightrite]

Why look out to try and see something you can’t (the Rwy) by putting undue risk into the equation? Turn 90(+- wind allowance) initially via the DG/compass then once established on base continue with that pilot shit so many are not capable of!!

[Garfly]

Some will never get it wrong. I get that.  

[facthunter]

Those that have awareness and good training.. Most of the aeroplanes available aren't suitable nor are the courses available unless you search effectively and know what you are looking for. To stall is to fall. Nev

[Mike Gearon]

I think of this problem like learning to ski. You really don’t want to push the weight into the front of the ski. It is so counterintuitive to push your weight forward down the slope you just finished tumbling down and now you’re trying again. Same happens again on your first black run steep slope. 
 

Some 300 hours plus hours in my muscle memory is stick forward and a glance at the ball just to double check nose is where it should be. I tried a 300ft turn emergency turn back in the Nynja some months back. In gliders you tap the altitude at 200ft and verbalise “ 200ft and safe to turn back to runway. At least in USA that’s what you do or fail checkride. Over the bay and I was bloody surprised to find the rudder tightening like it had a mind of its own. I was keeping the nose pointed well down for speed first. Still, I was shocked to see the ball well outside. Exactly the stuff we are taught to never do. Pulled it back to coordinated flight and never in danger. Still, a shock! No way would I have made it back to the beach and in a real emergency flying performance would I expect be significantly downgraded. Simple rules. Aviate, navigate… aviate it first at best glide and coordinated turn then navigate without a fixation on having to get to best landing site. 
 

I have no idea how often other pilots practise scenarios. I recite abort point and land ahead each flight as I was taught. I probably don’t practise enough in flight  scenarios and never practised a BRS pull…. Next flight!

[Old Koreelah]

52 minutes ago, Mike Gearon said:

I tried a 300ft turn emergency turn back in the Nynja some months back…

I have no idea how often other pilots practise scenarios. I recite abort point and land ahead each flight as I was taught…

Mike I’ve done a few rehearsals of EFATO at 2000’ directly above our strip. The OzRunways track shows I could comfortably make the turn onto our cross strip, only losing about 300’.

 

Based on that, after takeoff I now climb to about 50’ straight ahead (on the assumption I could get it stopped by the end of the strip if the noise stops) then radically climb off to the left, to set up for a turn onto the cross strip if need be. 
 

Running out of local places to explore on my weekly flight, so I’ve been doing slow flight turns on full flaps, idling at 2000 rpm, 60kts, to improve my skills.
 

One benefit of my new Sky-Echo 2 is more people can now see me from afar. Last week a bloke flew in and said he’d been watching my meanderings for quite a while.

[Mike Gearon]

57 minutes ago, Old Koreelah said:

Based on that, after takeoff I now climb to about 50’ straight ahead (on the assumption I could get it stopped by the end of the strip if the noise stops) then radically climb off to the left, to set up for a turn onto the cross strip if need be. 
 

Running out of local places to explore on my weekly flight, so I’ve been doing slow flight turns on full flaps, idling at 2000 rpm, 60kts, to improve my skills.
 

One benefit of my new Sky-Echo 2 is more people can now see me from afar. Last week a bloke flew in and said he’d been watching my meanderings for quite a while.

Hey, that’s a great idea! I’ve been flying to the other pilot/ runway on French island every few days. It’s 15 min drive or 2 minutes flying. Of course we fly it!
 

 I take off and pretty much same. 50ft up I’m turning toward the east and not even over the bay. Had not occurred to me that this is also setting up EFATO back to a paddock instead of a bay! It will “occur” to me from now on!

 

Nic and I flying today on S21 build errands. I think we will do some slow flying up high as you’ve indicated. 
 

See and seen! I always have the little Uavionics on now and iPad or phone open on avplan. Can end up throwing out 3 signals. The aircrafts transponder and iPhone and iPad if I’ve accidentally left avplan open on iPad. 
 

I expect to fly to Dubbo next week delivering Nynja to a buyer. Not far from you. Nic will follow and we return in the Blackshape. Well, Nic will take off way later. I’ll prob cruise up at 100kn and Nic is 145-150kn in the tandem  Blackshape with retractable gear.

[djpacro]

21 hours ago, Garfly said:

.... you don't notice that you're tugging a little on the already back-trimmed stick, and with eyes now back out front it's all a bit mushier and tippier and quieter than normal ...

Pilot develop bad habits from their flight training e.g. from CASA's Flight Instructor Manual:

Quote

MEDIUM TURNS IN LEVEL FLIGHT .....

Entry – lookout, apply aileron in the direction of turn,
rudder in the direction of turn and back pressure on
the control column .....

 

MEDIUM DESCENDING TURNS ....

Roll into the turn as for a medium level turn ...

Instructors repeat Bank Balance Back Pressure for entering a turn.

 

The CASA FIM goes on to state "Emphasize that the selected airspeed is held constant by use of the elevator ..." but instructors are not emphasising that in the circuit so many pilots have the bad habit of applying back pressure, instead of forward pressure, on the base to final turn with the resultant increase in angle of attack. Not good for one's long term health.

 

[Garfly]

3 hours ago, djpacro said:

Pilot develop bad habits from their flight training e.g. from CASA's Flight Instructor Manual:

Instructors repeat Bank Balance Back Pressure for entering a turn.

 

The CASA FIM goes on to state "Emphasize that the selected airspeed is held constant by use of the elevator ..." but instructors are not emphasising that in the circuit so many pilots have the bad habit of applying back pressure, instead of forward pressure, on the base to final turn with the resultant increase in angle of attack. Not good for one's long term health.

 

 

A similar issue, I believe, is that pilots are trained to be very aware of increased stall speeds in banked turns but some seem less aware that those figures are based on level turns (necessarily implying back pressure) and not descending turns, with wings (partly) unloaded. I've read that this fixed idea (from training) promotes an exaggerated fear of banking in turns onto base and final and indirectly contributes to the dangerous use of rudder to speed up the (possibly underbanked) turn.   Would DJP or other pros care to comment/advise?

 

 

Edited May 5, 2022 by Garfly

[facthunter]

You need extra  speed in  a turn if you wish to keep your stall margin. You can lose height and use potential energy or add power if you want to stay level or even climb if you have enough power.  You also don't trim out stick force in a turn.. Level figure 8's are a good practice procedure to co ordinate all the factors, or enter and leave a steep  descending turn PROPERLY. Nev