Another stall spin crash (usa)

[Blueadventures]

5 hours ago, Garfly said:

 

A similar issue, I believe, is that pilots are trained to be very aware of increased stall speeds in banked turns but some seem less aware that those figures are based on level turns (necessarily implying back pressure) and not descending turns, with wings (partly) unloaded. I've read that this fixed idea (from training) promotes an exaggerated fear of banking in turns onto base and final and indirectly contributes to the dangerous use of rudder to speed up the (possibly underbanked) turn.   Would DJP or other pros care to comment/advise?

 

 

All that are unsure should either before or at next bfr advise the instructor to give attention to turns. including about unloading elevator / then alerion use etc. I'm not an instructor so no specifics.  Your next flight needs that you do things correctly and specific to the type of aircraft your flying.

[Flightrite]

I’ve always maintained that it’s too easy to get a plane drivers ticket & even easier to keep it by way of poor checking! BFR/AFR’s need to be a lot tougher and not a box ticking exercise! 
From the day we got our plane drivers ticket it’s been a downhill slide skill wise for many! Since retiring and driving planes (commercially) part time I’ve had the opportunity to go with a few private drivers, me shakes me head, often! 

, 

[Garfly]

57 minutes ago, Flightrite said:

I’ve always maintained that it’s too easy to get a plane drivers ticket & even easier to keep it by way of poor checking! BFR/AFR’s need to be a lot tougher and not a box ticking exercise! 
From the day we got our plane drivers ticket it’s been a downhill slide skill wise for many! Since retiring and driving planes (commercially) part time I’ve had the opportunity to go with a few private drivers, me shakes me head, often! 

, 

 

You're preaching to the choir.  Almost everyone who engages here - to seek advice or offer it - is dead serious about improving the skills of amateur pilots; we all know what's at stake - and what's to gain - in recreational flying. 

 

 

[Mike Gearon]

16 hours ago, Garfly said:

 

A similar issue, I believe, is that pilots are trained to be very aware of increased stall speeds in banked turns but some seem less aware that those figures are based on level turns (necessarily implying back pressure) and not descending turns, with wings (partly) unloaded.

 

 

I was flying in Alaska with an old bush pilot mid 2022. We headed up a narrow pass and remembering YouTube’s of pilots crashing in the Rockies as they lost ability to climb in mountain passes. I said “we don’t have a choice here do we, can’t turn around” 

 

We then did. A steep descending 180 degree turn around in a float plane!

[Thruster88]

I am firmly in the Dan Gryder camp, prevention (fly correct airspeed)  is better than a cure (trained in spin recovery)  that may not work due altitude. If we spent as much time and training recognizing distractions (gear not retracting etc) as we do on practising international stalls things may get better. I have recovered from many spins and enjoy stalling. 

 

 

 

[djpacro]

On 2/5/2022 at 7:02 PM, Thruster88 said:

From my reading of accident reports, the accelerated stalls nearly always involve some type of hooning. ….. Fortunately this type of stall spin is not so common.  

My observation is that almost every fatality that follows an engine failure is a consequence of an accelerated stall. RV in country NSW and C172 at Moorabbin a few years back spring to mind. 
Powerline inspection by C172 last year.

 

On 5/5/2022 at 1:57 PM, Garfly said:

I've read that this fixed idea (from training) promotes an exaggerated fear of banking in turns onto base and final and indirectly contributes to the dangerous use of rudder to speed up the (possibly underbanked) turn.   Would DJP or other pros care to comment/advise?

Whether it is fear or a self-imposed limit from their training that is the classic scenario describing the skidded turn stall.

[derekliston]

3 hours ago, Thruster88 said:

I am firmly in the Dan Gryder camp, prevention (fly correct airspeed)  is better than a cure (trained in spin recovery)  that may not work due altitude. If we spent as much time and training recognizing distractions (gear not retracting etc) as we do on practising international stalls things may get better. I have recovered from many spins and enjoy stalling. 

 

 

 

What is an international stall?  (Bloody autocorrect I’dguess!)

[facthunter]

Minimum height loss stall recoveries should be taught.  Do it at the very onset of the stall or with stall warning activation. Any spin requires more height to recover so don't let it go that far.  Nev 

[Flightrite]

Vs is the minimum flying speed in a particular configuration, with careful control inputs the plane should be able to fly anywhere you want it to go at the stall speed. Stall warnings like an aural warning go off well before the actual stall, that’s why during a normal short field (or any landing for that matter) landing the stall warning should be blaring away to produce a min ground roll.

[facthunter]

Just before the wheels touch, yes.  Above ground effect height, flying at stall speed should not be advocated. It's neither efficient (bad L/D) or safe.(stall margin non existent). Nev

[Garfly]

This one shows again how an aircraft can so easily go from flying to falling in a couple of fateful seconds.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 12, 2022 by Garfly

[APenNameAndThatA]

On 6/5/2022 at 5:03 PM, Thruster88 said:

I am firmly in the Dan Gryder camp, prevention (fly correct airspeed)  is better than a cure (trained in spin recovery)  that may not work due altitude. If we spent as much time and training recognizing distractions (gear not retracting etc) as we do on practising international stalls things may get better. I have recovered from many spins and enjoy stalling. 

 

 

 

The solution is AND, not OR. In other words, they are not mutually exclusive. Furthermore, practicing slow flight and stalls could help you recognise decaying airspeed. 

[facthunter]

If you study enough incidents, how you (the Pilot)  operate under pressure (or distraction) counts for a lot. IF you are operating close to the stall your attention needs to be very focussed on what you are doing as there's literally NO  room for error, unless you are close to the ground. (and I mean Inches)  and intending to land.  Nev

[Mike Gearon]

On 7/5/2022 at 9:58 AM, facthunter said:

Minimum height loss stall recoveries should be taught.  Do it at the very onset of the stall or with stall warning activation. Any spin requires more height to recover so don't let it go that far.  Nev 

Are’nt stalls taught in Australia? Big part of training in USA and checkride includes stall recovery from both power on and power off stall with minimum height loss. 

[facthunter]

To my knowledge use of power for stall recovery is not taught in general although the syllabus mentions it. It's the only way to avoid height loss. I'm on record here many times saying the usual approach to stalls and recovery is no more than a box ticking exercise. Individual instructors can always show a variation. Most pilots seem to think losing a couple of hundred feet is OK. it's not if you don't have it to spare.    Nev

[pmccarthy]

It all depends how deeply you choose to enter the stall to define it as a stall before starting recovery.

[Mike Gearon]

10 hours ago, pmccarthy said:

It all depends how deeply you choose to enter the stall to define it as a stall before starting recovery.

In USA it isn’t buffet. It’s full on stall and the nose can’t be kept up for both power on and power off stalls. Usually you’ll try to balance with rudders but likely a left wing dip as the nose drops.

[APenNameAndThatA]

11 hours ago, pmccarthy said:

It all depends how deeply you choose to enter the stall to define it as a stall before starting recovery.

Very true. I half think that if an examiner asks for a stall, you should ask, “Would sir like a buffet or a wing drop?”

[APenNameAndThatA]

39 minutes ago, Mike Gearon said:

In USA it isn’t buffet. It’s full on stall and the nose can’t be kept up for both power on and power off stalls. Usually you’ll try to balance with rudders but likely a left wing dip as the nose drops.

If I recall correctly, in a Decathlon, if you have power on and pull the stick straight all the way back, you get buffet straight away and if you keep it pulled back, you might get a tail slide, which is not what it is rated for. I’m not saying you couldn’t be examined for a power on stall in a Decathlon. 

[APenNameAndThatA]

51 minutes ago, Mike Gearon said:

In USA it isn’t buffet. It’s full on stall and the nose can’t be kept up for both power on and power off stalls. Usually you’ll try to balance with rudders but likely a left wing dip as the nose drops.

Which, of course, is the opposite of recovery with no/minimal loss of altitude. If I remember correctly, airline pilots are taught to get a bit of negative G with stall recovery. I (with all my 170 hrs) think that it is better to train to get the stick well forward so the airplane is definitely flying again than to finesse it. In a stall on final or take off, the last thing you need is your instructor’s words in your ear stopping you putting the nose down. 
 

A flying instructor told me they recently had a student put the plane nearly vertically down on stall recovery. I think in general, with stall accidents, the issue is always the stick not far enough forward, not too far forward.  

Edited May 15, 2022 by APenNameAndThatA

[APenNameAndThatA]

Too, the sooner the nose is down, the sooner you can add power. 

[kgwilson]

When I did my PPL stalls were a major part of the syllabus. You had to be signed off for "Stall Basic", Stall Power On, Stall Fully Developed (Wing Drop)". Training was in a C150 or C152 & a good wing drop was demonstrated and then you had to practice this & recover from the incipient spin. You were required to practice all stalls solo as well. It did scare a lot of students (some lied about the solo practice)  but was a very valuable learning exercise. In RA only basic stalls are taught. Spinning is not taught as spinning in RA aircraft is not allowed.

 

My aircraft won't drop a wing unless I have plenty of power on with full flap & then kick the rudder fully. It will then go very quickly into a spin. Recovery is simply ailerons centred, opposite rudder, stick forward & fly away once the spin is arrested. 

[turboplanner]

On 06/05/2022 at 6:51 AM, Mike Gearon said:

I was flying in Alaska with an old bush pilot mid 2022. We headed up a narrow pass and remembering YouTube’s of pilots crashing in the Rockies as they lost ability to climb in mountain passes. I said “we don’t have a choice here do we, can’t turn around” 

 

We then did. A steep descending 180 degree turn around in a float plane!

Of course, he would have known how much altitude he had beneath him, but a good extra tool in the box around high ranges. 

[CT9000]

On 16/05/2022 at 9:29 AM, kgwilson said:

When I did my PPL stalls were a major part of the syllabus. You had to be signed off for "Stall Basic", Stall Power On, Stall Fully Developed (Wing Drop)". Training was in a C150 or C152 & a good wing drop was demonstrated and then you had to practice this & recover from the incipient spin. You were required to practice all stalls solo as well. It did scare a lot of students (some lied about the solo practice)  but was a very valuable learning exercise. In RA only basic stalls are taught. Spinning is not taught as spinning in RA aircraft is not allowed.

 

My aircraft won't drop a wing unless I have plenty of power on with full flap & then kick the rudder fully. It will then go very quickly into a spin. Recovery is simply ailerons centred, opposite rudder, stick forward & fly away once the spin is arrested. 

Only basic stalls taught in RA ???. Not necessarily true. The school where I learnt some 23 years ago insisted in competence and solo practice in all forms of stall except spins. An incipient spin is called a wing drop stall so is still ok in RA. On the other hand when I did my PPL a year later only stall to buffet or horn was normal with no full power on stall, no stall in a side slip, no stall in a steep turn. I still practice stalls from time to time and enjoy doing so. For what it's worth I recon that being ok with flying in and out of a stall builds memory to make sure you will never accidently stall. The other thing not often taught is that you cannot stall an aircraft without having full back stick (or near full). My experience is all aircraft have a "stall stick position" so if you don't pull back to this spot it will not stall.  

[facthunter]

Stick stall position applies to a DEFINED set of circumstances which can include TRIM position on SOME planes and CofG and things like icing.  It IS a very useful thing to use. Pilots stall planes. They don't stall themselves, and pulling the stick back when the nose drops is INSTINCTIVE and must  be resisted. Appropriate training will emphasise this. There should  really be NO INADVERTANT stalls,  EVER. Nev