Another stall spin crash (usa)

[CT9000]

16 hours ago, facthunter said:

Stick stall position applies to a DEFINED set of circumstances which can include TRIM position on SOME planes and CofG and things like icing.  It IS a very useful thing to use. Pilots stall planes. They don't stall themselves, and pulling the stick back when the nose drops is INSTINCTIVE and must  be resisted. Appropriate training will emphasise this. There should  really be NO INADVERTANT stalls,  EVER. Nev

Hi Nev, I completely agree that the stall stick position is not an exact thing but we are on the same page here. I feel that being trained to feel the aircraft by flying in and out of a stall makes it second nature to know where you are in relation to stall irrespective of load c-g bank etc. It could be that a lot of instructors just never really got comfortable with stalls and so cannot really teach stall management well because they are a bit scared.

                                                                                                                                                             Greg 

[facthunter]

Yes. When you do dogfights where the aim is to turn inside the plane you are following you learn these things.  Safer to do by yourself at a safe height.  For a given  situation the stick stall position is constant. The audible stall warning is a bit above stall but can be used or any AoA indicator or speed command bar.. The wings are there to work, which they are not doing very well if they are stalled which as we all are taught is an Angle not a speed. Moving the stick forward a bit will unload the wing and usually unstal it if done at the right time.  ( Early) Power can do the same thing (or both at the same time.) The only time you won't benefit  from power is if you are already in a steep nose down attitude. Nev

[derekliston]

Just reading all of these comments makes me wonder about WW2 fighter pilots, all of whom were very young and short on flying hours. They then had to go and throw these relatively high performance (compared to most of ours!) machines around the sky trying not to get shot down whilst trying to shoot someone else down. Sorry if this counts as thread drift, but I just have to wonder how they coped with stalls and spins?

[rgmwa]

They must have developed a very good feel for handling the plane in unusual attitudes and flying on the edge of a stall in tight turns. Being young, fit and a risk taker probably helped. Flying a fighter in combat must have been a very uncomfortable ride, and the stress of constant flying must have been debilitating, although the time they actually spent in dogfights probably only accounted for small portion of the time they spent in the air. The ones I really admire were the PR pilots who had to be both pilots and navigators flying unarmed on long missions with no guns and no support. That would have been a tough job.

 

[kgwilson]

Some of them didn't cope well but they learned quickly or died.. As well as getting shot down the accident rate was very high. A lot of the dog fights started at very high altitude (up to 20,000 feet) so if a stall or spin occurred at that altitude there was plenty of recovery room.

[Flightrite]

The poor brave buggers didn’t have to worry about stalls etc too much, few lived past a few weeks of combat flying anyway!

[Garfly]

4 hours ago, Flightrite said:

The poor brave buggers didn’t have to worry about stalls etc too much, few lived past a few weeks of combat flying anyway!

 

That ain't the takeaway message of this 1945 US Navy film  "Quit Stalling - or spin in."  

 

 

From the narration:

 

"In the first two years following Pearl Harbour many more Navy fliers were killed in accidents than were killed in air combat.  Stalls and spins alone killed almost as many fliers as the enemy did."

 

 

(All still relevant to us today.)

 

 

 

 

Edited May 20, 2022 by Garfly

[Flightrite]

All basic info for a well trained and recurrent tested driver, trouble is few are properly trained in the first place and even less tested thoroughly during annual checks!  Till licensing gets a lot harder the accidents will continue!

[Garfly]

This AvWeb editorial of a few years back tends to agree:

 

 

Reviving Stick And Rudder Skills

By AvWeb editorial staff • September 21, 2016

 

The Miracle on the Hudson is back in the news, with the big-budget flick Sully in theaters. For pilots, it’s a stark reminder that basic stick-and-rudder skills still come in handy sometimes. Those skills certainly helped Sullenberger, whose four decades of experience included glider flying. But in my work as an FAA aviation safety inspector — and during my own four decades of flying, as a flight instructor, airline pilot and the owner of a taildragger — I’ve seen innumerable examples of pilots, at all levels of experience, who seem to have forgotten or never learned those basic skills.

All too often, I see commercial pilots who have forgotten what the rudder is for. You do remember adverse yaw, don’t you? I’ve seen CFIs who allow their students to land nose-wheel first, instead of properly flaring the aircraft, without blinking an eye. And I’ve seen all too many flight-test applicants who blindly follow the magenta line while navigating with their glass-panel GPS. If the screens went blank, would they have a clue about their position?

Besides my own observations, I hear similar complaints from seasoned air crews at the major air carriers about the new hires. The new hires know how to fly the systems, but basic airmanship is poor. By the time you’re at a major airline, it’s too late to learn those basic skills. Technology has improved tremendously over the years, and that’s great, but we still need to have a firm grasp on the basics to use them effectively.

So now we have some instructors without a firm grasp of the basic skills, who in turn train students who become pilots without a firm grasp of the basic skills. These pilots go on to become instructors without basic skills, who train students without good basic skills… you see where this is going.//

... As Sullenberger put it in an interview, “For 42 years, I’ve been making small, regular deposits in this bank of experience, education, and training. And on January 15th, the balance was sufficient so that I could make a very large withdrawal.” What’s in your bank account? Is your balance sufficient to meet any challenge? If you’re not sure, then find a CFI who can help you to get there.

 

Edited May 20, 2022 by Garfly

[F10]

On 06/05/2022 at 6:51 AM, Mike Gearon said:

I was flying in Alaska with an old bush pilot mid 2022. We headed up a narrow pass and remembering YouTube’s of pilots crashing in the Rockies as they lost ability to climb in mountain passes. I said “we don’t have a choice here do we, can’t turn around” 

 

We then did. A steep descending 180 degree turn around in a float plane!

Yes, angle of bank has no effect on stall speed - unless - you try to maintain altitude in the turn. If you roll to 60, but unload by diving, no probs. get low and slow....and your looking at a forced landing with power, straight ahead.

[F10]

Another thing I didn't see mentioned but may have missed it...I won't try a turnback under 500 ft in my Gazelle, regardless. Far less distractions and better options for a quick trouble shoot, by going straight ahead. But a major problem with turn backs is the wind. Taking off into a 10kt wind, of course means a 10Kt tailwind on landing. But even more critical, you will have to be able to accelerate in the turn to maintain a safe IAS, as you turn downwind. I am always amazed in a low inertia aircraft, how far down you need to stuff the nose, to maintain speed, turning rapidly downwind. I think there is a rule of thumb, but I would add at least 200Ft for every 10 kts of headwind.  

[Thruster88]

I am surprised that you F10, a very experienced  pilot, has fallen for the down wind turn myth. A thruster flying at 50knots with a bank angle of 60° can complete a 180° turn in 4.8 seconds. Flying in a 20 knot wind at altitude our ground speed can go from 30 to 70 in 4.8 seconds. I have done this many times and there is no acceleration felt or loss of airspeed.  

Edited May 24, 2022 by Thruster88

[Garfly]

2 hours ago, F10 said:

But even more critical, you will have to be able to accelerate in the turn to maintain a safe IAS, as you turn downwind. I am always amazed in a low inertia aircraft, how far down you need to stuff the nose, to maintain speed, turning rapidly downwind. I think there is a rule of thumb, but I would add at least 200Ft for every 10 kts of headwind.  

Normally we don't directly relate IAS with 'wind', when it comes to aircraft performance and control. We think of operating within moving parcels of air and so we only factor 'wind' into ground speed considerations.   But I guess what you're pointing out is that in a sudden upwind >> downwind turn-back you're creating a kind of wind-shear situation for yourself and so you must be ready for the big push to be bigger and faster at the turn than it would be straight ahead.  Is that right? Would you care to elaborate?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 24, 2022 by Garfly

[facthunter]

Once you are travelling downwind getting  nearer the ground, windshear increases your AIRspeed. (Tailwind decreases). The " awareness of a higher groundspeed often makes you go slower. How often do you practice downwind landings?. LOW FLYING training would help here. Nev

[Flightrite]

Turning DW I maintain the same airspeed, Airbus to ultralights, old wives tales tends to frighten many!

Edited May 24, 2022 by Flightrite

[Garfly]

Yeah, I don't think this issue has anything to do with the ground per se. It's a rehash of the old debate as to whether 'turning downwind' is even a thing in aeronautics (apart from obvious ground considerations). 

 

Typical of the argument (between experts, it seems) is this contribution to the Comments section of the video below.

 

"The animation does not clearly show that an airplane can only experience wind shear at the moment it flies from one airmass into another one. INSIDE an airmass the airplane does not experience headwind, tailwind or crosswind."

 

 

 

[APenNameAndThatA]

7 hours ago, F10 said:

But even more critical, you will have to be able to accelerate in the turn to maintain a safe IAS, as you turn downwind.  

This is not true. It definitely feels true, and I didn’t realise your mistake until I read Thruster’s comment.  

[kgwilson]

Upwind, downwind, crosswind doesn't matter. You fly at the same speed relative to the air. The speed and direction across the ground, well, that is a different matter.

[facthunter]

In the air, you are moving with the airmass.   Nev

[Garfly]

3 hours ago, facthunter said:

In the air, you are moving with the airmass.   Nev

 

On this point we are all in furious agreement.

 

But given F10's savvy and experience he must have his reasons for complicating conventional wisdom with his practical observations.

Which is why I asked about the wind-shear 'exception'. I wondered if he meant that a quick 180 is a bit akin to rolling your own wind-shear.

Anyway, the theory around rapid turns within an air mass has long been debated.

Experts seem to disagree; that's nothing new in aeronautics. (Let's not get started on 'How does lift happen?"  ;- )

 

Edited May 25, 2022 by Garfly

[facthunter]

It seems counter intuitive but it's like a flowing river where you can do circles in the water leaving a dye marker and you end up where you started with the dye but from the bank it looks quite different. The current is faster near the middle and slower near the bank and that's similar to the wind where  the bank is the surface of the  topography and there is a shearing effect. (Change of velocity)

  Also the Planet is hurtling through the cosmos at incredible speed as well as rotating and we feel/notice nothing to indicate to us that is happening (except our eyes)..  Nev

[Yenn]

The only thing that could make you reduce speed with wind shear is the fact that your ground speed is looking higher than you are used to. look outside and its going so fast that you pull back on the stick. Then stall.

[Garfly]

Yeah, we all totally agree, but that's another issue altogether.   

What we're talking about is contained in these few words: 

"you will have to be able to accelerate in the turn to maintain a safe IAS, as you turn downwind"

 

Edited May 25, 2022 by Garfly

[Flightrite]

Most understand it but there will always be those that simply don’t believe! 
as long as they are not sharing the same airspace as me then let ‘em rip😂

[Flightrite]

Hope everyone watches the Blancolirio Chanel re the latest stall/spin fatal accident in the States of a C140, actual footage is available. 
just so unnecessary🙁