Willy airspace proposal • Call for comment.

[jackc]

1 hour ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

Turbs, you are just the right sort of thinker to prick holes in stupid ideas and I would like for you to be on the RAAus board.

I still disagree with you abut the Adelaide airspace submission and wonder how many times that airspace has actually been used in the last 20 years. AND why could not an airliner in real distress use one of its radios to talk to us?

Turbs needs training……he sh1tcans things, tells us his experience BUT but does not offer ideas for possible solutions.  By all means can someone’s ideas, but be ready to offer possible workable solutions otherwise it’s best to say nothing.

Success with RAAus board will determine how he can deal with egos, big or small.

No different to most organisations that have a regulatory flavour to them.

Skills of negotiation need to come to the fore……..

[turboplanner]

1 hour ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

Turbs, you are just the right sort of thinker to prick holes in stupid ideas and I would like for you to be on the RAAus board.

I still disagree with you abut the Adelaide airspace submission and wonder how many times that airspace has actually been used in the last 20 years. AND why could not an airliner in real distress use one of its radios to talk to us?

I accidentally pulled an excellent example map of Adelaide CTA up a few months ago when I was going to do an example for you of the net difference between the way you want to skim straight in under the step vs a track to the east of your target from Edenhope, deviating from track to where there was less headwind all the way up, so you would fly to the east of Parafield, go past it then turn back approx SE to Parafield outside the step, so problem solved if the net flight time was the same, but I didn't get around to doing it and I didn't file the CTA diagramme, but it was a VERY busy circle incorporating Adelaide Airport and Edinburgh Airport, and it showed all the holding patterns, some orbital, some an elongated oval with two straights and two end curves. From memory one of these was pretty much where you want to go.

 

The aircraft in real distress scenario is not an issue because as soon as any aircraft calls a Mayday it gets priority over everyone else, which has included a redirect to Mildura in the past. This includes you if you make that call, so CTA is not about distress its about traffic management.

 

One RPT flight runs ten minutes late, so the one behind it is put into a holding slot to make time for it to be clear of the runway after it lands. That delay throw the second aircraft landing behind and the third is running early, so it has to be put in another holding pattern, say doing the oval in your "20 years vacant airspace" The No 2 is called in to land, but No 3 is still maintaining the fast oval at the bottom of CTA. A RFDS aircraft calls inbound with a patient for urgent transfer to a helicopter so No 3 is moved to an orbit closer to the airport but with all the delays two more RPTs arrive, with one being directed to a loop towards Port Adelaide and the other to your favourite loop.

 

From memory there are about 10 orbits and loops within that Adelaide CT circle, so it can be a busy place. From that circle, you can still be pushed out further. I've been in an aircraft Orbiting Murray Bridge.

 

So ATC need to be 100% sure the space is free, and incursions are big deals.

 

As an example of unpredictability I was inbound for Essendon from the east of the CTA, all was going well, then ATC called up said there was a Medivac aircraft inbound and I was to orbit over Clifton Hill (about halfway from Parafield to Adelaide), so for about ten minutes I was parked out to the east of the City going round and round in beautiful sunshine trying to keep myself focused on an overpass, so I didn't stray into the next holding pattern. I wasn't looking for a Jab to come zooming through thinking the space was empty, I was totally focused on how I was going to get out of the orbit and still find Essendon.

 

 

 

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

4 hours ago, turboplanner said:

He said "Decisions are usually set in concrete WITHOUT considering submissions"

That's nonsense which anyone can check just by looking at consultation history.

I can also show you a dozen well-thought out, sensible submissions that were ignored.

 

Quote

You may not have had much luck or received a specific mention,  but did anyone show you how to make a submission that would work?, ie your issue, the research of the present situation, the improvement your submission could bring etc..

Yep Turbs, been there, done that. It’s great that you have done the work and acheived success with many submissions, but please don’t assume the rest of us have had a fair hearing.

It grates just a little on those of us who have done also done the hard yards, for nothing.

[Bruce Tuncks]

We could argue all day here I see Turbs, but I gotta tell you of this medevac flight at Tonopah, ( USA) where I flew a glider  from some years ago.

The last medevac flight I watched was at Waikerie and the plane hardly stopped because the ambulance drove out to the plane on the strip.

Not so in the US, the plane was there for nearly 3 hours ...  they ( the locals) thought this was normal, on account of how negotiations between teams of lawyers who were making a contract which specified just who was responsible for what and when took time.

Gosh it made me proud to be an Australian.

[Bruce Tuncks]

Anyway, you are on the side of might and therefore right with respect to that airspace submission I made. Actually, I was told verbally by somebody who was there that my submission was rejected because I was asking for " non-standard" airspace.

And I would never consider flying from Edenhope to Gawler by going closer to West Beach etc. I go over Mount Pleasant instead.

[turboplanner]

2 hours ago, jackc said:

Turbs needs training……he sh1tcans things, tells us his experience BUT but does not offer ideas for possible solutions.  By all means can someone’s ideas, but be ready to offer possible workable solutions otherwise it’s best to say nothing.

Success with RAAus board will determine how he can deal with egos, big or small.

No different to most organisations that have a regulatory flavour to them.

Skills of negotiation need to come to the fore……..

Why would I offer solutions to things that don't need a solution. I didn't make a submission because I didn't find any reason to depart from the proposal.

[turboplanner]

1 hour ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

Anyway, you are on the side of might and therefore right with respect to that airspace submission I made. Actually, I was told verbally by somebody who was there that my submission was rejected because I was asking for " non-standard" airspace.

And I would never consider flying from Edenhope to Gawler by going closer to West Beach etc. I go over Mount Pleasant instead.

Your other east Bruce, you wouldn't be going anywhere near West Beach.

The target I was thinking of was Parafield, forgot your home field was Gawler.

I'll get around to doing the exercise one day.

Any idea of the prevailing winds at Gawler and Edenhope?

 

Where the other guy said you were asking for "non standard" airspace, I would have described it as "non-available". If I can find the CTA diagramme, that actualy explains it.

Edited October 31, 2021 by turboplanner

[turboplanner]

Bruce would your track be roughly:

Edenhope

Keith

Tailem Bend

Mannum

Sanderston

Mt Pleasant

Gawler

[Bruce Tuncks]

Hi Turbs, well the prevailing wind between Gawler and Edenhope would be a Westerly, with the knots being higher with altitude.

But there can be easterlies, so you have to take it a day at a time.

Right now, I think I have moved to Edenhope permanently.  Today I flew down to Portland!

[Bruce Tuncks]

yep turbs, that's the way i go for sure.

 

[APenNameAndThatA]

On 30/10/2021 at 9:35 AM, Ian said:

I'm not against medical assessments per se, as the person with the risk factors often doesn't perceive the risk well. However the reverse it also true where it's often difficult to discount a condition with a demonstrably low risk.

There is often an issue of perceived risk vs actual risk and this appears to be significantly higher when dealing with medical issues. For example I have very mild asthma, which tends to only flare up when I am ill and leads to me feeling uncomfortable rather than suffering respiratory distress. During my initial medical assessment my DAME agreed that it was so mild as to not present an issue and not to require any special controls. CASA required further investigations which led me to spending many hundreds of dollars which demonstrated that my Spirometry results were normal. However the recommendation was that I am to carry an inhaler when I fly. While this is a fairly minor embuggerence, I did review the literature as published by ATSB and FAA relating to the incapacitation of pilots during flight which spans over 50 years, both in Australia and the US and could not find a single case of pilot incapacitation due to asthma. Heart attacks, stroke, multiple instances of food poisoning,  aerobullosis (the bends), nausea, respiratory infection etc but not asthma. I did point this out to both CASA and the specialist however to no avail.

So apparently statistics is no match for the vibe when considering risk so I duly pack an asthma puffer in my flight bag even though I don't have one in the house, or car or when I travel.

 

pilot-incapacitation-atsb.pdf 198.94 kB · 0 downloads faa-in-flight-incapacitation.pdf 469.49 kB · 0 downloads

I agree completely. 

[APenNameAndThatA]

On 30/10/2021 at 4:26 PM, jackc said:

I need to think what I need to add to a First Aid kit in the way of air sickness medication,  since I have been flying I have only got a bit sick a couple of times and not sure what causes it.  IF I am skipper in a boat, no problem.

 However I did a tour  boat trip to Balls Knob? when on holiday to Lord Howe Island.

Never been so sick in my life, took some over the counter pills (Quell)  Useless, sick as a dog the the whole 3 hours of start to finish. 

Bothers me IF I get turbulence while flying…….bit hard to fly and use a chuck bag!

I know I had some pretty good stuff when I got Chemotherapy for my Cancer 10 years ago……it was that good, I did not need an Aeroplane,  to fly 🙂  

You probably had ondansetron and might have had an antihistamine or antipsychotic. Ondansetron does not make you drowsy but does not work for motion sickness. 

[APenNameAndThatA]

First aid kit for an aeroplane. I took three of the following for injection: midazolam, vitamin K, adrenaline, morphine. Two penicillin for injection, one glucagon for injection, one hydrocortisone for injection, four syringes, four needles. Ventolin puffer, glyceryl trinitrate puffer, frusemide tablets. All that seems to weigh about 200g and the same space as two coffee mugs. I'm not convinced its worth it and only take it for remote trips. This is overstating it a lot, but first aid kits seem to just be full of bandages, which clothing can substitute for. 

 

If I didn't have access to drugs, my first aid kit would be a Ventolin puffer and maybe an epipen; nothing else. For local flights, just Ventolin. For personal safety: 10 L water, two EPIRBS/satelite phones, and a cigarette lighter: definitely *nothing* else in a so-called survival kit.   

 

Happy to hear others' views. 

[APenNameAndThatA]

2 minutes ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

First aid kit for an aeroplane. I took three of the following for injection: midazolam, vitamin K, adrenaline, morphine. Two penicillin for injection, one glucagon for injection, one hydrocortisone for injection, four syringes, four needles. Ventolin puffer, glyceryl trinitrate puffer, frusemide tablets. All that seems to weigh about 200g and the same space as two coffee mugs. I'm not convinced its worth it and only take it for remote trips. This is overstating it a lot, but first aid kits seem to just be full of bandages, which clothing can substitute for. 

 

If I didn't have access to drugs, my first aid kit would be a Ventolin puffer and maybe an epipen; nothing else. For local flights, just Ventolin. For personal safety: 10 L water, two EPIRBS/satelite phones, and a cigarette lighter: definitely *nothing* else in a so-called survival kit. Only 2 L water for normal trips, which probably is not enough.   

 

Happy to hear others' views. 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

In 50 years of flying, I have never seen a situation in which a first-aid kit would have helped. In the hopefully 3 or 4 years I have left , the odds are that these years will be similar.

Gosh I hope you never need those scary injections, Pen-name.

The nearest things to emergencies I have heard of were when well-meaning passers-by mistakenly thought that an outlanded glider had crashed and the pilot must be badly injured.

[Old Koreelah]

7 hours ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

First aid kit for an aeroplane…

 

For local flights, just Ventolin. For personal safety: 10 L water, two EPIRBS/satelite phones, and a cigarette lighter: definitely *nothing* else in a so-called survival kit.   

 

Happy to hear others' views. 

We had an extensive discussion on that very topic a few years ago, but my search skills cannot locate the thread; maybe someone else can.

 

Lots of suggestions were made and we came up with a pretty sophisticated survival kit in case of a forced landing in remote areas. One of my suggestions was a CD- with its centre hole for aiming, it makes and excellend signalling mirror.

 

In the event of an in-flight medical problem, I can’t see how I could do much with a first aid kit in my cramped cockpit. 

[KRviator]

7 hours ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

For personal safety: 10 L water, two EPIRBS/satelite phones, and a cigarette lighter: definitely *nothing* else in a so-called survival kit.   

 

Happy to hear others' views. 

Having done the RAAF Combat Survival course many years ago, it taught quite a bit about various factors encountered, as well as tips and tweaks most of which I've long since forgotten, but more importantly it teaches you to be a "survivor", not just an "existor" following a prang, and that mindset did influence my wearing of the vest when I fly.

 

Doing circuits? Not needed, but as the PLB lives in one of the pockets, it comes with me for anything outside the vicinity of the airport. And while you could probably survive until rescue - particularly on the east coast - without any of the goodies contained within, if the weather is poor and the rescue helo can't fly for a couple of days, I'll be a damn sight more comfortable if I can make shelter, or a fire, or use my torch at night.

 

5 minutes ago, Old Koreelah said:

We had an extensive discussion on that very topic a few years ago, but my search skills cannot locate the thread; maybe someone else can.

Not this one OK? Stuff you carry in your aircraft

[Old Koreelah]

30 minutes ago, KRviator said:

… it teaches you to be a "survivor", not just an "existor" following a prang, and that mindset did influence my wearing of the vest when I fly.

Impressive vest with almost everything you need, but make sure you can wriggle out of it in a hurry; it could easily get caught on something while you’re trying to squeeze out of a damaged cockpit.

 

30 minutes ago, KRviator said:

 

Not this one OK? Stuff you carry in your aircraft

Yep, that’s the one.