Does your ultralight have a transponder?

[Kyle Communications]

12 hours ago, Garfly said:

Mark, as far as I can tell, you're actually in agreement with what kg is saying, at least about the general usefulness of ADSB, no?  He's just saying he's not so keen on old style Mode C units for RAAus craft, though Thruster points out they still have a place (OCTA) in cases where old style TCAS units are in use by commercial operators.

 

Another consideration, as things stand, is that some kind of proper transponder (be it Mode C or S) is still needed to legally use Class E.  (SkyEcho2 won't cut it in E)  Isn't that what we concluded here, in other threads on the topic, a while back?

 

 

 

 

 

As I get older maybe my comprehension is up to crap..your right..I just reread what KG said and you are correct...I am agreeing with him DOH!!! I think ADSB should be in every aircraft..get rid of the old Mode C crap..its a radar ping  not aircraft to aircraft and also aircraft to ground

 

[Garfly]

Re-reading Walrus' post above - and my own follow up question - I now think it was just a confusion of terminology.

 

I'm now thinking that  'ADSB only showed close traffic' referred just to the installed transponder's display and that the distinction being made was that the SkyEcho2 + iPad display (of the same ADSB data) was actually better for their purposes (mutual separation) because it was easy to see where the other 2 were at, even at their chosen 4nm intervals.

 

Anyway, I agree: keeping track of each other while flying in company is another very good use of the tech. 

 

 

[Markdun]

OK.  I’m fine with ADSB.  I have a declaration though.  My brother, now semi-retired, was Australia’s (& one of the world’s) top engineer on ADSB.  He has been awarded the Hargrave Award from the Royal Aero Society for his work.  He has recently been working with the SpaceX guys getting global coverage by sticking ADSB base stations on their satellites.  Some years ago Airservices proposed that ADSB transponders be fitted to all aircraft, including RAA, for free, fully funded by the fuel savings of RPT aircraft.  This was vigorously opposed by RAA and others because of fears of the govmt tracking your movements etc.

 

I too, like the SE2, but I don’t find it reliable .,, the WIFI bit.  As I said before I originally got it to better avoid conflict with military Helios.,,& it does that.  What I found surprising is that ATC (Canberra approach) don’t monitor it (I’ve called them on the VHF).  

On one occasion at 4500’ over Lake Bathurst I heard a GA aircraft request clearance into Canberra reporting their position as 4500’ over Lake Bathurst.  I couldn’tsee them. I immediately contacted ATC and of-course they couldn’t see me on either primary or ssr (as I didn’t have a transponder).  They asked what I wanted, and i told them safe seperation from the other aircraft.  They then directed the other aircraft to a higher altitude.  This is all in Class G.  Since then I’ve often heard them give clearance to aircraft at Lake Bathurst for 4500’ to Canberra, but the CTR at that altitude doesnt begin for another 10nm.  And this is why I’ve installed a mode C transponder.

 

On another occasion flying in to Caboulture through Oakey airspace with an aircraft with a mode C we werehurrying to depart Oakey as they were broadcasting they were re-activating the restricted airspace (unplanned) and we inadvertently went into Brisbane CTR (due to an error in the electronic map).  ATC contacted us and we were able to rectify the problem without the shit hitting the fan.  Another reason for the old ssr.

 

Another reason i went for the little ADSB SkyEcho is that I sail a yacht with an AIS transponder (marine equivalent of ADSB). That has been fantastic.  Previously if on a possible collision with a ship you would call them up, ‘motor vessel at approx lat.  long. on my port bow, this is sailing vessel Tom Terrific’.  And you would get zero reply. Now AIS shows you their name, so you can call them, ‘Motor vessel Yashin Maru near NewcastleHarbour this is sailing vessel Tom Terrific 1nm off your port bow.  Do you see me?  What are your intentions to avoid collision?  I will attemptto pass you port to port.’  And you always get a reply.  And if you dont, you can always send an alarm message via DSC VHF radio which will make an annoying alarm ring in their bridge.  Very nifty.  The AIS data gives you their speed over ground, course, bearing and rate of turn....so it’s easy to compute how close you will get.

 

[Garfly]

Well that's very interesting, I'd certainly like to know just how conspicuous SkyEcho2 devices are, generally, to ATC  - both area and terminal approach controllers.  And if they're not, then why not?  Are they filtered as a policy feature, or is it a bug?  I doubt the issue would be mainly, or mostly, technical in nature (low power etc.).

 

Maybe one should simply 'request' area controllers for ADSB conspicuity checks.  After all, one of the advantages of voluntary participation in the system - touted by CASA, and others - was the added safety of being identifiable by 'Area', in case of trouble.  In any case, I suppose that the aircraft-to-aircraft advantages alone, are worth the price of admission (even in its current, less than universal, form).

 

Still,  I'd like to get some clarity on this issue.  Like, I sort of assumed that, say, Canberra approach controllers (and those at similar facilities, like Coffs) would be able to 'observe' the progress of your SE2 pings as you skirted their zone, OCTA.  Now I just don't know.

 

Edited October 30, 2021 by Garfly

[Blueadventures]

3 hours ago, Markdun said:

OK.  I’m fine with ADSB.  I have a declaration though.  My brother, now semi-retired, was Australia’s (& one of the world’s) top engineer on ADSB.  He has been awarded the Hargrave Award from the Royal Aero Society for his work.  He has recently been working with the SpaceX guys getting global coverage by sticking ADSB base stations on their satellites.  Some years ago Airservices proposed that ADSB transponders be fitted to all aircraft, including RAA, for free, fully funded by the fuel savings of RPT aircraft.  This was vigorously opposed by RAA and others because of fears of the govmt tracking your movements etc.

 

I too, like the SE2, but I don’t find it reliable .,, the WIFI bit.  As I said before I originally got it to better avoid conflict with military Helios.,,& it does that.  What I found surprising is that ATC (Canberra approach) don’t monitor it (I’ve called them on the VHF).  

On one occasion at 4500’ over Lake Bathurst I heard a GA aircraft request clearance into Canberra reporting their position as 4500’ over Lake Bathurst.  I couldn’tsee them. I immediately contacted ATC and of-course they couldn’t see me on either primary or ssr (as I didn’t have a transponder).  They asked what I wanted, and i told them safe seperation from the other aircraft.  They then directed the other aircraft to a higher altitude.  This is all in Class G.  Since then I’ve often heard them give clearance to aircraft at Lake Bathurst for 4500’ to Canberra, but the CTR at that altitude doesnt begin for another 10nm.  And this is why I’ve installed a mode C transponder.

 

On another occasion flying in to Caboulture through Oakey airspace with an aircraft with a mode C we werehurrying to depart Oakey as they were broadcasting they were re-activating the restricted airspace (unplanned) and we inadvertently went into Brisbane CTR (due to an error in the electronic map).  ATC contacted us and we were able to rectify the problem without the shit hitting the fan.  Another reason for the old ssr.

 

Another reason i went for the little ADSB SkyEcho is that I sail a yacht with an AIS transponder (marine equivalent of ADSB). That has been fantastic.  Previously if on a possible collision with a ship you would call them up, ‘motor vessel at approx lat.  long. on my port bow, this is sailing vessel Tom Terrific’.  And you would get zero reply. Now AIS shows you their name, so you can call them, ‘Motor vessel Yashin Maru near NewcastleHarbour this is sailing vessel Tom Terrific 1nm off your port bow.  Do you see me?  What are your intentions to avoid collision?  I will attemptto pass you port to port.’  And you always get a reply.  And if you dont, you can always send an alarm message via DSC VHF radio which will make an annoying alarm ring in their bridge.  Very nifty.  The AIS data gives you their speed over ground, course, bearing and rate of turn....so it’s easy to compute how close you will get.

 

The answer to what are your intentions would be most likely apply the Col Regs.  As best not to be specific in detail these days.

[APenNameAndThatA]

On 29/10/21 at 3:41 PM, kgwilson said:

Transponders in RA is a waste of panel space and money. They are useless at low altitude and useful in CTR where we are not permitted to go. ADSB in/out as in Skyecho2 is modern technolgy, affordable & useful for the pilot without requiring any interrogation from Airservices who are not interested anyway. "Squawk your parrot" transponder was invented in 1942 & has changed little except for the electronics since then.

I was flying in Class G and Brisbane Central called me to ask me my intentions and tell me about some parachute ops. He identified me by my altitude and location, which would have been much easier because of my transponder. 

[Garfly]

2 hours ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

I was flying in Class G and Brisbane Central called me to ask me my intentions and tell me about some parachute ops. He identified me by my altitude and location, which would have been much easier because of my transponder. 

Yes, that happens often, and getting such safety alerts - workload permitting - even as a lowly VFR player, has always been an advantage of carrying a (Mode C) transponder in Class G.  But I think KG's point is that the the same would happen - only better - with a modern ADSB-capable transponder (including, theoretically, affordable versions of same like the SE2).   In which case, you'd be identified and addressed not as "VFR aircraft 10 miles west of Gympie at 4,500, tracking south-west" but by your rego number.  (For better and for worse ;- )

 

Edited October 30, 2021 by Garfly

[walrus]

Garfly, I've done some research and there is a subtle software error in my ADSB installation - will be corrected before next flight. ADSB should have shown the two other aircraft. Anyway having he Ozrunways is a useful backup fort guys with no transponder.

[BirdDog]

On 29/10/2021 at 4:41 PM, kgwilson said:

Transponders in RA is a waste of panel space and money. They are useless at low altitude and useful in CTR where we are not permitted to go. ADSB in/out as in Skyecho2 is modern technolgy, affordable & useful for the pilot without requiring any interrogation from Airservices who are not interested anyway. "Squawk your parrot" transponder was invented in 1942 & has changed little except for the electronics since then.

 

Can't quite agree here.  My previous aircraft had only a ModeC transponder, and it was used to great affect many times.  I used Flight Following a lot, and it was by others who could see me.  Was contacted many times by Melbourne Centre to want of converging aircraft - so that's a good thing - AND - Was used to enter controlled airspace (which we can actually do with the right aircraft and gear)  Yes.  Of course you will need a part 61 licence, which I have.  But the fact remains, an RAA registered machine can enter CTA.

 

ANY transponder is better than none - but I do agree, ADSB is far superior - which my new bird has both in and out.

 

 

[Markdun]

On 30/10/2021 at 9:49 PM, Garfly said:

 

Maybe one should simply 'request' area controllers for ADSB conspicuity checks.  After all, one of the advantages of voluntary participation in the system - touted by CASA, and others - was the added safety of being identifiable by 'Area', in case of trouble.  In any case, I suppose that the aircraft-to-aircraft advantages alone, are worth the price of admission (even in its current, less than universal, form).

 

Still,  I'd like to get some clarity on this issue.  Like, I sort of assumed that, say, Canberra approach controllers (and those at similar facilities, like Coffs) would be able to 'observe' the progress of your SE2 pings as you skirted their zone, OCTA.  Now I just don't know.

 

Me too.  Because that is exactly what i did when i first used the ADSB....I called Canberra Approach (& it’s not like they are busy with only a handful of flights all day) and asked whether they could see me on ADSB at 5000’asl.  And yes the SE2 is low power but I’m all 25nm from YCBR, maybe further from wherever they have their base station.  But that’s irrelevant, I was told they don’t look.   Area controllers seem to use every bit info they can get,including Ozrunways GSM phone positions, for example, when chasing people up for Sartime log offs (that is not from my own experience).

[Garfly]

Markdun,

I wonder what it even means when they say they don't even look.  (If we still have any of our ATC pros online, maybe they could enlighten us.)  I'd have thought that ADSB targets - of any and all kinds - would show up on their main screens on top of primary and ssr layers.  I believe that some do have 'situational awareness' screens, so maybe some ADSB information is filtered out of the main screen and delegated to secondaries.  But hey, it's not JFK we're talking about, so can it be a 'workload'  issue or, screen clutter?

 

You'd think they'd be grateful for the extra heads up that conspicuity thingies provide regarding random VFRs lurking OCTA, near/under their steps.  After all, as you report, they do direct aircraft along flight paths beyond their boundaries.  All the more reason, then, to take an interest in the lurkers that show themselves.

 

In fact, that newish south western VFR route under the steps (between Tidbinbilla and Tugeranong) requires users, Class G notwithstanding, to contact Canberra approach on 125.9 with their intentions.  It's right there on the Canberra VTC.

 

By now, we should have had some pro-active feedback from CASA about this experiment they're running with low-cost ADSB gear.  If Airservices are just not interested in playing ball, then we should know about it.  As I said, CASA was touting the benefits of visibility to ATC as part of the incentive to attract participants.  We still get aircraft-to-aircraft awareness, but even there, it's hard to get info on just how many IFR operators are actually equipped with the kind of TCAS / traffic displays that can take advantage of an increasingly conspicuous hoi polloi.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 1, 2021 by Garfly

[BirdDog]

Hmm So I will stick my neck out here and say it has little to do with contacting CB APP, and more a broadcast to anyone else in the area.  Same for when a Parachute plane calls a drop.

The reason it's on CB APP 125.9 is because that is the frequence you should be on in Class G (under the steps) so that is the best freq to broadcast.

 

Edited November 1, 2021 by BirdDog

[Garfly]

Yes, that may be the primary thinking behind it, like using Area frequencies for advisory circuit calls into unmarked strips.

Anyway, I'd guess that Approach controllers would take an interest in those calls; they know their 'steps' are notional things, permeable by flying machines of all sorts.