Katoomba Airport Battle Lost :-(

[jackc]

Sad news for Blue Mountains, a live stream by AOPA this afternoon with the current leasee revealed closure date of 19th Nov 21 will see the keys handed back after some 50 plus years.  A kick in the guts for local Aviators and others who used this facility.

[skippydiesel]

2 hours ago, jackc said:

Sad news for Blue Mountains, a live stream by AOPA this afternoon with the current leasee revealed closure date of 19th Nov 21 will see the keys handed back after some 50 plus years.  A kick in the guts for local Aviators and others who used this facility.

Wow! that bad news indeed - I have never landed there but consistently use it as my first/last waypoint (emergency landing ground) to/from the Sydney Basin when going "out west" over all that Tiger Country.

 

Who are the "keys handed back" too? 

 

Is there any chance that it may continue as a potential/emergency landing ground?

[jackc]

Replay of AOPA stream on Facebook.

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

https://www.facebook.com/AOPAaustralia/videos/431995338291761

 

[skippydiesel]

10 hours ago, jackc said:

Replay of AOPA stream on Facebook.

 

 

Great idea (not) I am not on Facebook. If you want to get the best from this Forum try being a little less critic /referring us/me to a system that does not further my understanding.

[jackc]

Well, Skippy……. sorry but my mind reading facility is working ‘on condition’ due to its battery being past TBO.

Just like my life is 🙂 

[turboplanner]

A couple of Planning lessons here, admittedly taken just from the AOPA Interview.

1. Know your threat; Know who you are up against and who thye players are.

    Initially the "NSW Government" is said to have done this, so you would wonder why? then Ben did expand further with "NSW Planning & Environment" which sounded like an environment group, out no it was apparently Department of Planning, Industry and Development. I don't know the habits of this department, but it's Victorian counterpart doesn't usually go on the attack and as a department close things down whether people want that or not.

 

In some cases the Victorian Minister will act on an inappropriate development, but even then he simply gets his department to do the Planning analysis and make a recommendation to him.

 

It wasn't Ben's job to get to the bottom of what this was all about; he's just pointing out the consequences of the loss to aircraft owners.

 

The question left handing is what brought this on?, what was it all about?

 

2. The discussion drifted into the emotional reasons for keeping Katoomba - amenity reasons - but these never carry much weight in Planning matters even though they go to the heart of the people involved.

 

3. What did make me sit up was when Ben said it was about "issues of prior use".  This indicated tit may have been an NCAT hearing, where Prior Use is a non-emotional and decisive factor in any Planning case.   When Ben went on to say "They failed to recognise this" and they said there was "not sufficient evidence of prior use" bells started to ring. I'll have a look for an NCAT decision. If it was an NCAT case, for prior use I would have expected the submission on 50 years use to include a dozen or so pages of photos, registrations, dates, traffic, events - positive proof.

 

 

 

 

[jackc]

Then add this to the list……

 

http://vocasupport.com/airports-in-australia/

[turboplanner]

Any RA pilots notice anything about the aerial photo of Katoomba I put up a few posts ago?

[walrus]

Let’s face it, Government hates private non RPT and non military or government run aviation in all its forms.  Their only concern is to ensure that as an industry sector we die quietly. I cannot think of one positive action Government has taken for GA/RA that hasn’t had to be dragged out of them with much kicking and screaming.

[turboplanner]

1 hour ago, walrus said:

Let’s face it, Government hates private non RPT and non military or government run aviation in all its forms.  Their only concern is to ensure that as an industry sector we die quietly. I cannot think of one positive action Government has taken for GA/RA that hasn’t had to be dragged out of them with much kicking and screaming.

Depends what you are referring to:

If you are talking about Katoomba Airfield, my research so far indicates that it was occupied on a monthly arrangement  until 2017, minimal commercial aviation occurred and the airfield began to fall into disrepair, a helicopter company was granted a license to use it from 2018, the DPI conducted a 56 day Public Submissions period which ended on August 4, 2019 (the Blue Mountains Council opposed development in its submission),  there was no lessee and that the DPI on January 13 2020 rejected a lease application on the basis of overwhelming opposition. 

 

Ben Morgan's claim of 50 years ofexisting use appears correct; I found 1969-2019 as anchor dates, however;

 

"Existing Use" is a legal Planning term which almost certainly would have prevented the airport closure in NCAT, but I've found no information that indicates anyone bothered to take the simple task of opposing the decision in VCAT, so on that basis it wasn't the "Government" that shut it down, it was apathy.

 

If you are talking about the vocasupport link a few posts ago, firstly you would remember Kharon; that's his site and information.

 

It lists 13 airfields under threat; that's just 13 out of Australia's total of around 659, and of the 13 I would disqualify 6, so about 7 real threats.

Most of the threats are financial rather than government.

 

Regarding your comment in general, governments these days don't physically promote specific industries like they used to prior to the 1980s, and they oversee the minimum "controlling bodies" so you're not going to see any change; they don't hate non commercial activities, they are just not going to finance any mistakes and negligence in those activities, and encourage Self Administering Organisations which carry their own liability.

 

In some cases this has produced huge gains; consider motor racing in Australia where CAMS were the Controlling Body. Saloon car racing became less and less popular in Group C, went downhill further in Group A based on formal European classes, but was pushed to the sidelines when "V8 Supercars" was formed and administered its own series.

 

RAA is in a similar situation to V8 Supercars; its quite free to promote RA flying - nothing holding it back, so you shouldn't be sitting around waiting for "the Government" to act; the train doesn't run on that line any more.

 

 

[Flightrite]

Most know that GA is getting thinner by the day, corrupt councils, inept CAsA and other grubby corporate types see GA as a minority to be squashed but bled in the meantime!

[jackc]

Money, greed and apathy comes to mind.  There are examples everywhere, airports/airstrips,  caravan parks, speedway tracks, showgrounds plus many others.  These facilities created many years ago have been surrounded by development and values have risen to the point where the operators of these facilities have realised there is big money in developing those facilities and the incumbent uses are now unviable in respect of monetary return. 

How many airports that accommodate GA and RAA have been built in the last 20 years?  As I have said in the past, many people will be flying from private airstrip in may cases.  Airports/airstrips in many rural areas will still be around for a long time, but the numbers will dwindle the closer they are to more densely populated areas.  Not a good look, but we just have to keep working to keep existing facilities going and to this end, Ben Morgan is fighting a daily War to try and save airports under threat.

I don’t see many soldiers behind him…….

[KRviator]

@turboplanner, the thrust of one of your arguments is that Gumby-ments don't (or don't have to) promote things these days, and I would agree in Australia that's somewhat true.

However, Aviation in Australia also has the exact opposite of being "promoted" with seemingly endless impediments to the simple act of committing aviation...what with the ASIC, never-ending regulatory "reform", the Australian-ising of things such that you need an EO to put a GoPro on a wing strut, whereas in the US it's a '337 (if that), Canada has 'owner-maintenance' for a range of basic GA certified aircraft right up to 172 variants, the US has Part 103 for unregistered 'ultralights'. Oh, and we have AvData too, bottom-dwelling parasites that they are.

Beyond the original "Experimental" category, I struggle to think of a single thing that Government has done to assist - not necessarily promote - aviation in this Country. We still don't have SBAS/WAAS after nearly 2 decades, it took years for CAsA to allow "non-TSO'd" ADS-B GNSS position sources in Experimental/RAAus and but for the grace of god a Jabiru didn't become a hood ornament on an A320 at Ballina because they won't stump up the $$ for Class D, because, well, User Pays you know... And let's not mention the rest of the airspace abomination that is Australia. Consider that you can go straight over the top of LAX, JFK or SFO in Class E in the US yet here you're stuck low level over tiger country or coastal because you can't get a decent clearance though an unoccupied Class D! 

 

True, the Government doesn't have to promote aviation - but neither do they have to have introduced so many effin' roadblocks to it. 

[jackc]

Don’t try fitting this to your aircraft, looks just like a Bomb 😞

https://levilaviation.com

 

I think might be allowable on 19 rego?

[Kyle Communications]

I have one :)...works pretty well

 

[turboplanner]

3 hours ago, KRviator said:

@turboplanner, the thrust of one of your arguments is that Gumby-ments don't (or don't have to) promote things these days, and I would agree in Australia that's somewhat true.

However, Aviation in Australia also has the exact opposite of being "promoted" with seemingly endless impediments to the simple act of committing aviation...what with the ASIC, never-ending regulatory "reform", the Australian-ising of things such that you need an EO to put a GoPro on a wing strut, whereas in the US it's a '337 (if that), Canada has 'owner-maintenance' for a range of basic GA certified aircraft right up to 172 variants, the US has Part 103 for unregistered 'ultralights'. Oh, and we have AvData too, bottom-dwelling parasites that they are.

Beyond the original "Experimental" category, I struggle to think of a single thing that Government has done to assist - not necessarily promote - aviation in this Country. We still don't have SBAS/WAAS after nearly 2 decades, it took years for CAsA to allow "non-TSO'd" ADS-B GNSS position sources in Experimental/RAAus and but for the grace of god a Jabiru didn't become a hood ornament on an A320 at Ballina because they won't stump up the $$ for Class D, because, well, User Pays you know... And let's not mention the rest of the airspace abomination that is Australia. Consider that you can go straight over the top of LAX, JFK or SFO in Class E in the US yet here you're stuck low level over tiger country or coastal because you can't get a decent clearance though an unoccupied Class D! 

 

True, the Government doesn't have to promote aviation - but neither do they have to have introduced so many effin' roadblocks to it. 

 

I was writing a quick social media answer for an RA audience rather than an exhaustive thesis, but I'm happy to extend the explanation to "assist", "not assist", "like",'not like" or any other words you like to bring up. They are at arms' length from our operations.

 

You can bitch about a Go Pro mount needing to be engineered, but in BMX I went through a dozen or so where the camera found its own way down top the ground.

It's interesting that each time I've taken the time to search US regulations for "things they are allowed to do in the land of the free" the search has shown it no longer applies and their current requirements are the same as ours. Not saying there aren't exceptions, but the grass always looks greener over the fence.

 

Interesting also in that apparently only one person on this site made a submission on a similar airways matter which tells me most pilots understand why airspace restrictions are there.

 

You can also judge the satisfaction among RA pilots and owners with the present status quo from the 10,000 members and 3,200 aircraft owners who are not complaining.

 

In your case with the aircraft type you've built and the application you seem to want to be using it in, I can understand the difficulty negotiating the GA processes which are primarily set up for established manufacturers to build aircraft on a production line basis. They go through the process you're not happy with because they are used to it, having done it over and over again, and the production units don't have the processing issues you had. I design new truck models, and the design and paperwork takes about 4 years before there's an approved production model sitting in a showroom ready to go on the road and I don't actually have to build the trucks, so your experience is like it's been because you chose to step into the design pipeline. 

 

 

[turboplanner]

4 hours ago, jackc said:

Money, greed and apathy comes to mind.  There are examples everywhere, airports/airstrips,  caravan parks, speedway tracks, showgrounds plus many others.  These facilities created many years ago have been surrounded by development and values have risen to the point where the operators of these facilities have realised there is big money in developing those facilities and the incumbent uses are now unviable in respect of monetary return. 

How many airports that accommodate GA and RAA have been built in the last 20 years?  As I have said in the past, many people will be flying from private airstrip in may cases.  Airports/airstrips in many rural areas will still be around for a long time, but the numbers will dwindle the closer they are to more densely populated areas.  Not a good look, but we just have to keep working to keep existing facilities going and to this end, Ben Morgan is fighting a daily War to try and save airports under threat.

I don’t see many soldiers behind him…….

Not with 7 real issues at 659 coded airports.

One of the 6 cases I discounted was Mildura where according to Kharon's report, Airports under attack, "removed tie downs for GA on hard stand" was the attack.

[jackc]

So is Ben Morgan and the AOPA wasting their time?  Who here would take on what appears to be a thankless task trying to keep the wolves from airport doors?

I mean would I not have a clue, been in Aviation all of 5 minutes with nearly Zero knowledge, and living in an Aviation wasteland.

 

[turboplanner]

Just now, jackc said:

So is Ben Morgan and the AOPA wasting their time?  Who here would take on what appears to be a thankless task trying to keep the wolves from airport doors?

I mean would I not have a clue, been in Aviation all of 5 minutes with nearly Zero knowledge, and living in an Aviation wasteland.

 

Keeping wolves from the doors of a property is usually the job of the owner or lessee of the property. 

If you want to step in as an independent person, there is provision for that in the Planning Scheme.

If a body decides to change or shut down a Use, anyone who took part in the decision phase can appeal to NCAT.

If no one appeals, then the matter ends with the body's decision.

Happens every week of every year around Australia; quite often the participants just give it away as an own goal.

 

 

 

 

 

[jackc]

Well,  I have picked some pretty big battles in my lifetime, ones that people said I was wasting my time……but I still won.

My personal policy is…..if you don’t have a go, you will never know 🙂. I will be happy to take my achievements to my grave!

[turboplanner]

13 minutes ago, jackc said:

Well,  I have picked some pretty big battles in my lifetime, ones that people said I was wasting my time……but I still won.

My personal policy is…..if you don’t have a go, you will never know 🙂. I will be happy to take my achievements to my grave!

To win the battle you have to engage in the war, and it would appear that no one took the action to start the war.

[jackc]

Avoidance of some Wars in the past has resulted from skilled negotiations.  When those skilled negotiations fail, then it’s game ON……..

[pmccarthy]

GA is much more relaxed than when I began. We had to lodge flight plans for other than local flights, maintain contact with Flight Services and carry HF in remote areas. The changes are all possible because of technology, but CASA etc have allowed them. 

[turboplanner]

56 minutes ago, jackc said:

Avoidance of some Wars in the past has resulted from skilled negotiations.  When those skilled negotiations fail, then it’s game ON……..

Sorry I should have made it clearer; NCAT is the final legal decision maker. It appears that no one took it to NCAT. There's no game ON after that.