Affordable flying?

[spacesailor]

Don,t forget those BUREAUOCRATES, Sitting in their offices dreaming of more restrictions, for you.

spacesailor

 

[jackc]

Highly paid dreamers who are somewhat jealous of Aviators having too much fun!  And them also probably being lousy car drivers, thankfully they don’t fly 🙂 

[Flightrite]

The AUF then RA was born out of people wanting a cheaper simpler choice to fly, same as the LCC (low cost carrier) concept but like the LCC which people wanted more frills but keep the cheap fares the basic/cheap end of flying got expensive as people simply wanted more, more frills and oh how the plastic fantastics have boomed! It’s a dog chasing it’s tail!

[turboplanner]

1 hour ago, Flightrite said:

The AUF then RA was born out of people wanting a cheaper simpler choice to fly, same as the LCC (low cost carrier) concept but like the LCC which people wanted more frills but keep the cheap fares the basic/cheap end of flying got expensive as people simply wanted more, more frills and oh how the plastic fantastics have boomed! It’s a dog chasing it’s tail!

I would agree with that general theme, but somewhere buried within RAA is the magic solution because RAA are still claiming a membership of around 10,000 with 3.500 aircraft. Whatever it is those members aren't talking on social media.

 

 

The first Ultralight flew in 1907, the Demoiselle in France - 20 hp engine, 56 kg tare wt incl. fuel

In Australia:

The Dickeson wing appeared in 1963

Bill Moyes free flight 1968

Wheeler Scout, 8 hp Victa lawnmower engine 1974

CAO 95.10 1976

AUF formed early 1980s, 2000 members by 1985

 

At the present time it's still a success story, and the dog chasing its tail syndrome can be fixed by setting up maybe ten distinct classes.

Then some will fire up, and others will wither, but it will get rid of the sport-wide whining that goes on and drag new entrants down.

 

 

 

[turboplanner]

On 12/11/2021 at 2:31 PM, Bruce Tuncks said:

If the RAAUs was developed to foster affordable flying, I reckon the stupidity of the population has beaten them.

First, a digression:  Gliding was once the cheapest way to get into the air, and it still can be if you will accept winch launches in a wooden glider. Very few do this.

The result is,  if you look at glider sales nowadays, you will see a tiny number of 1/2 million dollar things being imported by the rich.

The scene I grew up with, where working guys could buy a syndicate glass 15m glider, has also gone by.

 

When I bought my Jabiru kit, it was cheaper than the sales tax on a self-launch 17m glider.... so now RAAus had the cheapest flying for me.

But the new aircraft mainly seem to be factory built 1/4 million things for the rich.

What is happening?  Why do the younger generation seem to only want things they can't afford?

As a GM Director once said when the dealers wanted GM to fix something, like reducing the price by 30%:

"If you're looking for sympathy it's in the dictionary between sh!t and syphill!s.

 

The dealers went on to take market leadership of that product.

[turboplanner]

3 hours ago, spacesailor said:

Don,t forget those BUREAUOCRATES, Sitting in their offices dreaming of more restrictions, for you.

spacesailor

 

You've been offered help multiple times; don't blame the bureaucrats.

[naremman]

Sorry guys, but you have missed the apex of affordable aviation by about 40 years!!

 

At the risk of being labelled an irrelevant old fart, the early 1980's marked the transition from encouragement to imposition.

 

Next year will mark 40 years since the introduction of the BFR: "this is not a test, it is an opportunity to convince me you are safe to be let loose to commit aviation for the next two years"!! What benefit, how many downsides?

 

At this point the bulk of pilots still had a green cardboard licence holder embossed with "Department of Civil Aviation" , the last time aviation had any clout around a parliamentary cabinet table.

 

We could fly into a primary capital city airport, sans transponder, land, park without charge and exit the facility with a wave of our licence, and ASIC was not even something our imaginations would have never considered!

 

This was before the Federal Airports Commission, when the Government owned all our major airports and generously allowed us to use them at no charge, until they had a brain storm and thought they could charge those who park aeroplanes at such facility money, and adorn the aircraft with nice stickers!! Then they had the bright idea that they could flog such assets to private enterprise and achieve an economic nirvana. Apparently warehouses are a better fit for aerodromes than aeroplanes!!

 

In 1974 you could buy a new Cessna 172M for $17,000, four times the cost of a Holden Kingswood. The current automobile equivalent has improved incredibly in standards and comfort, compared with the same airframe possibly with a bit of glass, and certainly way beyond the four times cost multiple.

 

Whilst those who fly in country locations have more chance at operating at affordable locations, the majority of Australia's population live in close proximity to our cities, with limited options to base aircraft at, and the money goes into a base and protection of the aircraft. rather than flying.

 

As for my circumstances. Learnt to fly in 1973 at $18 an hour, purchased a Victa Airtourer for $3,500 in 1975, based it at the farm, hangared, and close to a couple of thousand hours logged. Could I replicate that experience today, or tomorrow. Impossible, sadly!

[turboplanner]

52 minutes ago, naremman said:

Sorry guys, but you have missed the apex of affordable aviation by about 40 years!!

 

In 1974 you could buy a new Cessna 172M for $17,000, four times the cost of a Holden Kingswood. The current automobile equivalent has improved incredibly in standards and comfort, compared with the same airframe possibly with a bit of glass, and certainly way beyond the four times cost multiple.

 

As for my circumstances. Learnt to fly in 1973 at $18 an hour, purchased a Victa Airtourer for $3,500 in 1975, based it at the farm, hangared, and close to a couple of thousand hours logged. Could I replicate that experience today, or tomorrow. Impossible, sadly!

My uncle once refused $400.00  to buy a Tiger Moth.

You can go back to those days, but still find that only one person in the surrounding district owned an aircraft.

The basic wage in 1973 was $1.93/hour, in 2021 it's $20.33 = 10.59 multiplication factor.

In 1973 GA aircraft hire was $18/hr, in 2021 it's $266/hr  = 14.77 multiplication factor

It's more complex these days because people want better products; they wouldn't fly a Victa these days, yet I used to go out at 7 am before work once a week and do limited aerobatics. But it didn't have glass.

In 1973 I was selling Mercedes Benz Coaches with air conditioning and on-board toilet for $45,000, in 2021 it's $1.2 million = multiplication factor 27

I can recall in the early 1980s the typical Holden/Falcon size car went from $5,000.00 to $20,000 due to specification

It all really depends on how you package your thoughts.

Today we work 2 hours a week less than we did in 1973, so that can be converted to overtime or a second job.

Take a look at the outer suburbs; today the typical workers home is two story, admittedly build on a postage stamp, and the family will own two cars, but that's because both husband and wife earn incomes.

One experience got me thinking about runaway costs; A Melbourne bus operator rolled one of his coaches, ripped the body off and salvaged the chassis. It was a 4x2 with a rear mounted Detroit 8V92 two stroke diesel engine and Allison automatic transmission. I had to get it from the repair shop to a truck depot to be taken to Brisbane for a body. They'd wired on a plastic lunch room chair for me to drive, and I realised that without all that body mass this would be a high performance machine. As I pulled up to the lights a Kenworth semi slid up beside me and the Type A personality took over. I tramped the foot and could hear the 8V92 responding but nothing happened. What I didn't know was the engine was digging down behind the rear axle and the chassis was humping up in the middle. When sufficient pre-tension was reached it let go and slammed the front axle and the lunch room chair, and fortunately me, forward almost the length of the Kenworth cab and I streaked away from him. Later, as heavy truck operators complained about the high cost of trucks and how they were going broke I did a detailed exercise on taking out omponents and systems that were not necessary for the task; aluminium fuel tanks, mudguards to splashguards), bull bar, radio/sound system, CB, glove box and tool locker, cab lining and carpets, steel sleeper to folding canvas, full width cab to driver cowl, power steering, 18 speed transmission, auto-greasing, 30% power, pretty much everything back to 1913 except the solid tyres. When I costed it out I'd taken twenty years of costs out, so I presented it to the operators at a meeting. I'll leave it to you to guess whether their thumbs were pointed up or down at the end, so we went back to the up to the minute technology.

 

Having said all that, this exercise would be most productive looking at your nice and deciding how you can make it more affordable. In most cases it will be shorter, more frequent flights.

 

[Thruster88]

Affordable flying is still alive and well for anyone who wants it. 6k to buy and 10l per hour fuel. Fun times at the farm.

 

[jackc]

8 minutes ago, Thruster88 said:

Affordable flying is still alive and well for anyone who wants it. 6k to buy and 10l per hour fuel. Fun times at the farm.

 

Yes, but sadly we now have some Flying Schools charging in excess of $300 per hour with extras on top to train for your Certificate to fly that nice cheap aircraft.  Aviation has its financial vultures everywhere that raises costs, from the regulator down……..

For me it does not matter as I am near EOL, but I feel for young people who want to have a go at Aviation…….

[Thruster88]

14 minutes ago, jackc said:

Yes, but sadly we now have some Flying Schools charging in excess of $300 per hour with extras on top to train for your Certificate to fly that nice cheap aircraft.  Aviation has its financial vultures everywhere that raises costs, from the regulator down……..

For me it does not matter as I am near EOL, but I feel for young people who want to have a go at Aviation…….

In this area Parkes, Forbes and Cowra aero clubs all offer training for around $130 + instructor. We are just looking to cover all costs. Join a club. 

[pmccarthy]

A Cessna 150 on the new RAA weight limit may be the best value for the next few years, if the stall speed will allow.

[Flightrite]

That corny statement “ the good ‘ole days” (or words to that effect) always pops up in such conversations, life has no rear view mirror, it’s always forward and we are our own worst enemies.....wanting more, bigger & better, faster, more space, more comfort and more of the gizmo’s to entertain us, (humans love to be entertained) just look at the stuff most people have in their houses, the fancy cars, it’s the same as A/C but that costs more so the concept of affordable flying is well behind us now, the way of the future!

 

[Kenlsa]

Affordable flying?

 

look for a Piper Colt, fit VGs for RAoz, or stay VH

all for under$20k

a few of us have done this

 

Ken

[BirdDog]

 

Surely this thread is taking the piss?

 

How is RAA not a cheap way to get flying?  Obviously there are costs, and I actually don't think they are that high!

FIrstly - you need to be trained.  Someone has to buy that aircraft (and keep it safe)  THAT has a cost.

Then, someone needs to pay the instructor (which they still are underpaid) THAT has a cost.

You are going to have to wear those costs - PLUS - The school is in business to make money - not the goodness of their heart - so you are going to have to wear that cost.

All that said - $4000 to $6000 is not what I would call expensive to be trained in decent aircraft to have your arse in a chair in the sky and stay alive.

Next - your aircraft of choice.  

 

You can spend cock all - like above 6 grand and away you go!  Put Mogas in it.  Maintain it yourself, and it's cheaper to run than your family car.  What more could you ask for!!

 

If you want to spend big and get a fancy machine with glass etc, because you can - Excellent!!!  I congratulate you on working hard and rewarding yourself in life (as I have)

 

Why does everything in life have to be cheap!  LOL!  Things cost money.  That's how it is.  You can't get it all for free.  Personally I don't think it's expensive - but there are expenses along the way you will have to pay!  That's the way the world works.

 

I am SUPER happy that RAA gave me the opportunity to get into aviation at a level that is above wood and paper mache glued together on a prayer.  I fly a pretty sophisticated machine at a price point that I think is decent, without the complex crap of GA, and I can maintain it myself - WINNING!

 

As far as CTA.  I converted to also hold a Part61 RPL, and went and did the CTA endorsements!  It's easy, and not that expensive.  Now I can fly into anywhere!  How could I possibly complain!

 

[turboplanner]

1 hour ago, BirdDog said:

 

Surely this thread is taking the piss?

 

How is RAA not a cheap way to get flying?  Obviously there are costs, and I actually don't think they are that high!

FIrstly - you need to be trained.  Someone has to buy that aircraft (and keep it safe)  THAT has a cost.

Then, someone needs to pay the instructor (which they still are underpaid) THAT has a cost.

You are going to have to wear those costs - PLUS - The school is in business to make money - not the goodness of their heart - so you are going to have to wear that cost.

All that said - $4000 to $6000 is not what I would call expensive to be trained in decent aircraft to have your arse in a chair in the sky and stay alive.

Next - your aircraft of choice.  

 

You can spend cock all - like above 6 grand and away you go!  Put Mogas in it.  Maintain it yourself, and it's cheaper to run than your family car.  What more could you ask for!!

 

If you want to spend big and get a fancy machine with glass etc, because you can - Excellent!!!  I congratulate you on working hard and rewarding yourself in life (as I have)

 

Why does everything in life have to be cheap!  LOL!  Things cost money.  That's how it is.  You can't get it all for free.  Personally I don't think it's expensive - but there are expenses along the way you will have to pay!  That's the way the world works.

 

I am SUPER happy that RAA gave me the opportunity to get into aviation at a level that is above wood and paper mache glued together on a prayer.  I fly a pretty sophisticated machine at a price point that I think is decent, without the complex crap of GA, and I can maintain it myself - WINNING!

 

As far as CTA.  I converted to also hold a Part61 RPL, and went and did the CTA endorsements!  It's easy, and not that expensive.  Now I can fly into anywhere!  How could I possibly complain!

 

Good to see a few positive thinkers among Dad's Army.

 

[turboplanner]

I think Tomo has left is all for dead, paid to train in his teens, then decided to get married at a young age. That's then end of bobbies and flying right?

He hunted around and bought a Piper Pacer. GA affordable flying, none of the engine rebuilds and maintenance costs of the upper end of RA.

Now he owns the Piper for local flying and a Piper Twin Commanche PA30 for cruising.

[Bruce Tuncks]

Just because lots of us old guys can afford things does not mean that all costs are reasonable.

In particular, I don't like many of the "safety compliance costs" which we didn't have to pay years ago. Like the ASIC card costs.

But my  main gripe is that too many younger people seem to stay away because they can't afford the high costs of the high-end of flying. I lament that they don't seem to want to try the cheaper side of flying.

 

 

[APenNameAndThatA]

us$30k for a new trike

[jackc]

The one reason I seek low budget flying is for potential Aviators of the future…….to give them a step up. Me?  I can go spend $3-400k on a plane IF I want……not interested, just like new cars, I drive old relics everywhere  7 of them, 4 are Landcruisers…..do I want a new one? NEVER not even for half price, buckets of pus they all are, full of wank gizmos etc.

Same for aircraft, not interested in plastic super slick fantastic planes full of Home and Away screens…..All I really need is a fuel guage and a compass.   I am minimalist and love it 🙂. I sure know one thing, I will bet the RAAus office have some members here and each week they read the prolific dribble by some of us and put up their ‘Wanker of The Week Award’  on their lunch room wall.

Bet I score this weeks award 🙂 

[facthunter]

Do the judges have enough knowledge to assure US of an accurate outcome?    One thing got me though  tough times . You can ONLY be insulted by people you respect. Nev

[walrus]

Jackc. today another tradie asked what I wanted for my old 80 series. I told him he was number 5 in the queue. I have a 200 as well.

[jackc]

10 minutes ago, walrus said:

Jackc. today another tradie asked what I wanted for my old 80 series. I told him he was number 5 in the queue. I have a 200 as well.

I sold 2 x80 series about 3months ago, sat one on the side of the road for 1 day, sold for what I asked, put the next one on Facebook……gone the next day. Every week I have people in the street want to buy my BJ42, same for my Fj45.

But the interesting one was a $20k offer for my ‘96 75 series now with 290k kms on it I bought 15 years ago for $16k.

Prices are out of control on many vehicles.

[Student Pilot]

On 14/11/2021 at 10:15 AM, Kenlsa said:

Affordable flying?

 

look for a Piper Colt, fit VGs for RAoz, or stay VH

all for under$20k

a few of us have done this

 

Ken

Colt for under 20K? Surely you jest?

[Student Pilot]

On 14/11/2021 at 5:29 AM, Thruster88 said:

Affordable flying is still alive and well for anyone who wants it. 6k to buy and 10l per hour fuel. Fun times at the farm.

 

What a great machine, a true minimum aircraft. A delight to fly.......