Heavies flying with their wheels down....... My question.

[flying dog]

(YSSY 36L)

 

I get it that things happen just after take off and "lifting the legs" is delayed.

 

But usually they are retracted pretty well before Petersham.

 

I've seen some with the wheels down at Strathfield and beyond.

 

I don't want to annoy anyone or tell the pilots what to do.

 

But just wondering if it would be ..... "appreciated" if there is/was a phone number at the tower I could call to mention it.

It may give the tower a quicker head's up than the plane, as they may still be busy doing checks and not got around to telling the tower.

[facthunter]

Wheels are usually selected UP at confirmation of a "Positive Climb" called and confirmed usually by 100 ft. All the obstacle and Climb gradient limits are predicated on this being done.  Any crew that didn't notice the gear hadn't been retracted wouldn't pass their first sim check.. IF there had been long periods of taxiing the tyres may be hot and may be aided by a term of cooling. This would be rare and noise abatement requires the climb to 5,000' be expedited.

  On  descent, particularly straight in the gear is often dropped 15+ miles out   Nev

[flying dog]

Well, it is rare, but I know I've seen 3 cases I can remember.

 

1 they weren't retracted until about Homebush...  Maybe later.

2 possibly the same

3 not too long ago at 5 Dock/Drumoyne

 

They would be at about 3,000 feet.

(They were - of course - taking off/departing)

[Bennyboy320]

Here’s me taking off in HKG filmed by my wife, dispatched with a brake fan inop which required you to leave the gear down for a given time ( a minute or two from memory) for cooling, if you had a subsequent engine failure you raised the gear, all briefed & understood before take off. (Please turn off volume 😳)

 

If you got an ECAM caution after gear retraction you would have to slow down if required to below gear extension speed, lower the gear & let the temps reduce, a 200 KTS breeze does the job quit well.
 

On a side note if you have all engines operating regardless of gear up or down performance/noise abatement is not an issue on an airliner, unlike a GA twin.

Edited November 24, 2021 by Bennyboy320

[flying dog]

I'm not arguing that.

 

I am just asking/mentioning that I have seen planes leaving their wheels down three times recently.

 

I don't watch every plane taking off.   I do have other things to do.

 

But given I've seen it now three times:  I was just asking.

 

[Roundsounds]

On 26/11/2021 at 9:46 AM, flying dog said:

I'm not arguing that.

 

I am just asking/mentioning that I have seen planes leaving their wheels down three times recently.

 

I don't watch every plane taking off.   I do have other things to do.

 

But given I've seen it now three times:  I was just asking.

 

You’d likely find the aeroplanes would have departed with a fault related to the braking system. Typically wheel brakes are automatically applied when landing gear is retracted. If a brake was unserviceable (some are permitted to be U/S) the crew would leave the gear extended to allow the wheels to spin down before retracting them.

[onetrack]

Wouldn't a set of wheels left down and left to spin at takeoff speed, after takeoff, take a considerable length of time to slow to low RPM's? - and wouldn't that set of spinning wheels, which are usually unbalanced due to flat spots from landing, provide a level of gyroscopic imbalance to the aircraft? 

[nomadpete]

It sure does on a Drifter!

[facthunter]

It CAN on small stuff and applying the brakes (airborne) tells you what it is.  Most wheel vibration of the out of balance/ out of true type is caused by rubber tire Hysteresis (Distortion) caused by cold tyres and the plane has been sitting in one position for a significant time. The first flight of the day is a typical time and will often reduce if the taxi distance is fairly long. Anti skid braking systems practically eliminate tyre flat spotting. .  I can't recall any instance of it with serviceable anti skid.. WITHOUT it on a plane of any size a tyre blowout is easily done on sealed runways and unless you have dual wheels on each side, that can create directional control problems and maybe a wheel fire.  Nev

[facthunter]

WET runways can create tyre rubber removal and it's good to NOT do too light a touchdown in those circumstances.  Nev

[Flightrite]

No big deal if the legs are left down, they’ll figure it out sooner or latter😉

Edited November 28, 2021 by Flightrite

[Hwansey]

The MEL (Minimum Equipment List) does allow for despatch with a wheel brake locked out.  (I only have direct experience with Boeing, but assume similar dispatch is available on Airbus too).  If my memory serves me correctly it was 5 mins with gear down on B767.  In Qantas it was an MEL rarely used however because it invoked a second segment limitation that seriously impacted on the MTOW for despatch because the second segment had to shown to be flown with the gear down.   I think it also may have been a category B MEL which meant it could be used for one flight day only. 

[Bosi72]

On 24/11/2021 at 6:58 PM, flying dog said:

 

But just wondering if it would be ..... "appreciated" if there is/was a phone number at the tower I could call to mention it.

... I do have other things to do.

 

it's in ersa...  in case you don't have other things to do 😉

Edited December 8, 2021 by Bosi72

[Ryanm]

As others have said, it can be maintenance related and thoroughly briefed by the crew before departure. The Crew would notify the control tower if relevant. If they don't, the TWR will quickly ask if we're "Ops normal?".

[facthunter]

I recall in the mid 60's at Darwin a BN ISLANDER departed direct to Pt Moresby and the Tower said " ABC your wheels have Failed to retract" followed by "ARE you returning for landing?".   Bit embarrassing for the  controller but He was only trying to help.  RAAF dromes have some slightly different procedures. one being "clear to Land.. Check wheels" for all military planes.  Civvie ops must have less forgetful pilots? Nev

[onetrack]

The "check wheels" advice is short and simple and easy, and if permanently added to civilian ATC communications, it might just have prevented a lot of expensive stuff-ups?

[flying dog]

(Gee this has gone a lot further than I thought.)

 

There is/was a great youtube clip of a retired US navy pilot who got into a lot of trouble when "shunting" (moving) a plane from a land base to the carrier and forgot to retract the wheels......

 

Opened the throttle, and ripped the undercarriage off the plane.   (F14 or 15 from memory)

[facthunter]

 I don't know of any heavies that have forgotten to" Dangle the Dunlops". There's been a few with mechanical problems where the gear didn't lock down properly or the doors didn't retract after gear extension and got some damage.. A few Beechcraft that retracted the gear when they meant to retract the flaps after landing.but moved the knob next to it.

     DCA did a wheels up but they are endowed with extra talent.. Well they don't fly a lot and have different planes to fly.. Still "Strict Liability" wouldn't wear that, but applies to US..   You get a few seaplanes that leave the wheels down for water landings.  The saying that  "There's ONLY those who HAVE forgotten to lower the wheels and those who are going to, to be not really even  close to accurate.. NOT saying it hasn't been done and won't happen again BUT.. 3 greens and a landing clearance before coming over the fence is  a good idea. before those horrible expensive scraping noises start. Nev

[Flightrite]

It’s all a matter of discipline, it’s too easy to get a plane drivers ticket and keep it, plenty of pvt drivers out there who wander aimlessly around the sky, Ldg wheels up is just slack and lazy!

[spacesailor]

The best ( worse  ), wheels up landing.

A flying boat being filmed, hade,nt extended the wheels, landing on it,s keel.  Quickly powering up to go around, then after landing the keel damage was filmed.

spacesailor

Edited December 14, 2021 by spacesailor
Word Changed

[facthunter]

Surely ONE does not have to labour the point, Landing wheels up is promotion destroying.Nev

[onetrack]

This writer claims gear-up landings are seriously under-reported ...

 

https://www.flightsafetyaustralia.com/2015/11/those-who-wont-avoiding-gear-up-landings/

[facthunter]

Bit hard to cover up and taxiing in normally is out of the question. There's always considerable damage..In any case how many are mechanical failure  and how many are failure to select?  Nev

[Marty_d]

I was always taught "BUMFHH" as the pre-landing check - Brakes, Undercarriage, Mixture, Fuel, Hatches & Harnesses.  As I was in a C172 the "U" part of it involved looking out the window to ensure the wheel was still there.

[Bosi72]

After Base to Final Checklist

PUFT - pitch, undercarriage, flaps, trim