Unzipped • restoration project (thankfully) fails taxi test.

[Garfly]

 

 

 

[Thruster88]

Tim wrote a great book, The Diary of Jack Flyer.

[onetrack]

Oh Dear! If he'd spent much less time on the paint job, and a whole lot more time looking for dodgy repairs, and previous crash damage, he might still be flying in it! 

[Marty_d]

Bloody lucky he wasn't tempted to take it up after a few successful ground runs.  Imagine if those zip ties gave way at any height.

[turboplanner]

Looks like a Basic structures module with basic engineering pinciples needs to be added to RA maintenance training.

[Thruster88]

14 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

Looks like a Basic structures module with basic engineering pinciples needs to be added to RA maintenance training.

CASA schedule 5, mirror, torch and pen. Works on all aircraft. 

 

CASA Schedule 5 came into being many years ago to address a specific identified unsafe condition, when light aeroplanes imported into Australia either had no manufacturer's maintenance schedule, or had an inadequate maintenance schedule.

[turboplanner]

49 minutes ago, Thruster88 said:

CASA schedule 5, mirror, torch and pen. Works on all aircraft. 

 

CASA Schedule 5 came into being many years ago to address a specific identified unsafe condition, when light aeroplanes imported into Australia either had no manufacturer's maintenance schedule, or had an inadequate maintenance schedule.

Eyeball use would be very good, for an Engineer.

Given that RAA considers under Self Administration that a shop assistant can not only build an aircraft, but maintain it, so has no understanding of structural engineering, and what is being described here is the equivalent of (the previous owner or "someone") taking a chainsaw, sitting on a limb and cutting it on the truck side, there needs to be some training in what to use the above instruments for. A cable tie is perfectly OK for a non structural application such as attaching electrical cable to a tube, but not to replace a weld which completes triangulation of a fuselage.

[cscotthendry]

If I was rebuilding a crashed airplane, I wouldn't leave anything uninspected. A little thought would have told him how important bracing structures are in an airframe, and that is exactly what those things are. If he missed those, did he miss inspecting other welds on the frame?

And the original owner should be hung drawn and quartered for using zip ties to attach structural members.

[turboplanner]

40 minutes ago, cscotthendry said:

If I was rebuilding a crashed airplane, I wouldn't leave anything uninspected. A little thought would have told him how important bracing structures are in an airframe, and that is exactly what those things are. If he missed those, did he miss inspecting other welds on the frame?

And the original owner should be hung drawn and quartered for using zip ties to attach structural members.

Problem is virtually none of the owners are engineers, so the question is who in RAA has the job of auditing each aircraft to ensure they are safe?

[Flightrite]

It’s a risk you take when buying such a sh1t heap in the first place and only making it look ‘pretty’! The guy who said he’d flown just about every diff type....but learnt nothing! Still he survived, wonder whether he learnt anything this time?

[Marty_d]

On the positive side he's got the guts to share his mistake so the rest of us can learn from it.  He could have chosen to keep this to himself to avoid the embarrassment.

[derekliston]

14 hours ago, Garfly said:

 

 

 

Apart from any other consideration, if I had to put that much effort into starting my engine, I would probably give up flying!

[Blueadventures]

3 hours ago, cscotthendry said:

If I was rebuilding a crashed airplane, I wouldn't leave anything uninspected. A little thought would have told him how important bracing structures are in an airframe, and that is exactly what those things are. If he missed those, did he miss inspecting other welds on the frame?

And the original owner should be hung drawn and quartered for using zip ties to attach structural members.

Same also needs to be done for any condition of aircraft just purchased, I fully check through; and also do not trust documents for quals of persons doing prior maintenance and inspections (with all due respect to them and their ability)  Too much at stake, do a fully monty inspection.  IN hind sight I am sure Tim stopped at the point of hear / feeling the creak or whatever he heard.  I look forward to his next project that he completes and enjoys flight with.

[kgwilson]

You don't have to be a structural engineer to make sure you have an airworthy aircraft. You just need an attitude towards the integrity of the build and if you do not have the skills find someone who does and complete a full structural inspection especially where welds and joins are concerned. I am an Engineer and I built my aircraft so know every nut, bolt and rivet. I still got a Lame to look at the build at various stages & of course needed him to check my work when doing the final inspection. We even disagreed on some issues but worked through those till got to a resolution.

 

A second set of eyes and a level of knowledge related to the task is essential IMO. 

 

I don't know if he had any knowledge of the aircrafts history, only that it was a restoration project. This should have been enough to ring the right bells. Obviously he is an experienced pilot and test pilot but appears to have made assumptions on the structural integrity of the airframe.

[facthunter]

Even Boeing (when they were good) have made errors in the estimated flight loads of structural elements of an airframe. As an example flight tests of the B 727 with strain gauges fitted showed the actual loads in the vertical fin (T tail  ) were many times what was anticipated in wind tunnel tests of  models.

  Early designers loaded things with sand bags. Sample testing welds, Glued Joints etc is also good policy.. I can analyse a truss frame in steel/Al tubes as I've done that in a tertiary Engineering course. You need the actual performance specs of all the materials in the condition they are used in.. I've obtained all of Bill Whitneys published material also and read lots of EAA material..(Tony Bingellis)sp?   Wood is difficult as there's a lot of variation of the material itself.. I don't know how to really address this subject as there's so many facets to it but load testing sub sections would be part of it..  A good approach is for the MAKER to provide the truss parts already welded and design analysed. for a start.  Nev

[Garfly]

 

17 hours ago, Thruster88 said:

Tim wrote a great book, The Diary of Jack Flyer.

No doubt about it ... he's a clever guy.

 

 

 

[Bernie]

It's a 444 I owed one back in the early 60's. My second car first was a 54 Hillman.

Bernie. 

[rgmwa]

23 hours ago, Garfly said:

 

No doubt about it ... he's a clever guy.

 

 

Clever, but a bit of a worry.

[turboplanner]

23 hours ago, facthunter said:

Even Boeing (when they were good) have made errors in the estimated flight loads of structural elements of an airframe. As an example flight tests of the B 727 with strain gauges fitted showed the actual loads in the vertical fin (T tail  ) were many times what was anticipated in wind tunnel tests of  models.

  Early designers loaded things with sand bags. Sample testing welds, Glued Joints etc is also good policy.. I can analyse a truss frame in steel/Al tubes as I've done that in a tertiary Engineering course. You need the actual performance specs of all the materials in the condition they are used in.. I've obtained all of Bill Whitneys published material also and read lots of EAA material..(Tony Bingellis)sp?   Wood is difficult as there's a lot of variation of the material itself.. I don't know how to really address this subject as there's so many facets to it but load testing sub sections would be part of it..  A good approach is for the MAKER to provide the truss parts already welded and design analysed. for a start.  Nev

This wasn't a Boeing type issue it was someone trying to tie a fuselage together with a cable tie after a weld broke.

[kgwilson]

Maybe Boeing didn't use cable ties but they essentially did the same thing by covering up serious flaws when whistleblowers (who were then sacked) laid complaints about component suppliers producing sub standard fuselage ribs. 3 or 4 737s made with these parts fuselages broke into several bits when they crash landed. Deliberate crash landings of earlier aircraft showed the fuselage stayed in 1 piece. This was all detailed in a SBS doco produced back in 2011. Boeing successfully managed to ensure the doco was not shown in the US. All pre the 737 Max debacle.

[Blueadventures]

22 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

This wasn't a Boeing type issue it was someone trying to tie a fuselage together with a cable tie after a weld broke.

Turbo my take is that he may not have known about the cable tie or that it held some tube in place, perhaps if this was a case of a missed opportunity to identify an issue that he will make better checks of airframes in future.

[facthunter]

I don't believe Jack would think a cable tie would do the Job. He gained a lot of experience fast and had enough enthusiasm to inspire others.. He got on with it while others talked about doing something.. The situation does highlight the need for inspection/testing of structures in an on going way.. . Colts and tripacers have an X ray requirement on the frame near the door opening . Austers and others rot out tubes and lower rudder near the tailwheel.. Cherokees wing  rear spar turns to white powder. I've also written of rats chewing nearly through a wing spar that I luckily picked pre flight.  Also If something feels wrong, abort the take off. Nev

Edited November 28, 2021 by facthunter

[turboplanner]

27 minutes ago, Blueadventures said:

Turbo my take is that he may not have known about the cable tie or that it held some tube in place, perhaps if this was a case of a missed opportunity to identify an issue that he will make better checks of airframes in future.

I think Tim had good reason not to notice it because it was hidden. I was more concerned about the person approved to maintain his own aircraft replacing a weld with a cable tie.

[kgwilson]

19 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

I think Tim had good reason not to notice it because it was hidden. I was more concerned about the person approved to maintain his own aircraft replacing a weld with a cable tie.

How do you know the original owner was approved? 

[turboplanner]

5 minutes ago, kgwilson said:

How do you know the original owner was approved? 

If he wasn't that would just magnify the issue RAA has.