Future fuel sources

[Geoff_H]

It looks like Twiggy is backing hydrogen.  Liddell power station has been making hydrogen by electrolysis since the 1971.  Just a much larger scale.

[Flightrite]

The bulge was typical of the era built by the Pom’s, they liked ugly! The cockpit door was narrow so access into the office was tight and an ergonomic mess! Superb handling though👍

[Ian]

1 hour ago, Geoff_H said:

It looks like Twiggy is backing hydrogen.  Liddell power station has been making hydrogen by electrolysis since the 1971.  Just a much larger scale.

Yes he's been doing it for a while. The only reason I can see him doing this for is to lower the carbon emissions of steel manufacture. He's hoping to combine a healthy dose of government funds with an industry opportunity.

[Geoff_H]

5 hours ago, Ian said:

Yes he's been doing it for a while. The only reason I can see him doing this for is to lower the carbon emissions of steel manufacture. He's hoping to combine a healthy dose of government funds with an industry opportunity.

I have worked in WA and met a few people that have worked with Twiggy.  He is a great guy and is truly interested in the community.  His grandfather Lord Forest was a great guy also, he did a lot to develop WA.  He doesn't have an office he sits in a big room with all other employees. He does huge effort promoting the aboriginal.peoples lifestyle.

[Ian]

It wasn't meant to be disparaging I think that he's done a great job of building wealth in Australia. Steel production is currently very carbon intensive, Twiggy's business revolves around iron ore. This is a problem for his business model.

You can make mostly green steel using Hydrogen by directly reduced iron (DRI) and then further processing it in an electric arc furnace. This is viable if H2 becomes cheap enough which it may do, the most efficient plant for the production of H2 is estimated to product H2 for about US 60c/kg over the life of the plant. This doesn't include power or storage. So you need lots of cheap power using something like solar to make this viable. 

Australia has lots of space and a goodly amount of sunshine so this can make lots of cheap power some of the time. In theory this might provide energy for the above.

All this doesn't change the fact that H2 sucks a bit as a transport fuel for the reasons stated, though it might become a sufficiently cheap feedstock for processes like this on https://www.pnas.org/content/116/26/12654

Ironically I lot of these processes require CO2 as a feedstock.

 

Also Twiggy did admit in 2011 that Forteque Metals had never paid any Tax https://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-11-09/fortescue-mining-company-tax/3655270

So I wouldn't expect him to do anything without getting the maximum return from Government.

 

 

[Geoff_H]

One of the biggest carbon emitters are mines!  One particular iron ore mine, a confidentially agreement prevents me from disclosing much) burns 3,000,000 litres of oil per month.  Hydrogen powered machinery would prevent this diesel/explosives from emitting.  There must be many mines also with high emssions.  Most electricity is from burning natural gas from the pipelines in gas turbines (hence my involvement).

[Geoff_H]

Sorry left a zero out, should be 30,000,000 litres of diesel.  Getting old and forgetful lol

[onetrack]

The outback mines in W.A. are rapidly moving over to green energy sources, solar in particular is such low cost, it's a no-brainer.

 

Being a diesel supplier to a remote mine is no longer a massive growth business, and it will become a business with little future.

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2021-11-15/green-mines-a-renewable-energy-evolution/100613266

 

Edited December 9, 2021 by onetrack

[Flightrite]

We will all be rotting in the ground b4 fossil fuels are not needed!

renewable is great but it’s not the total answer!

[Geoff_H]

1 hour ago, onetrack said:

The outback mines in W.A. are rapidly moving over to green energy sources, solar in particular is such low cost, it's a no-brainer.

 

Being a diesel supplier to a remote mine is no longer a massive growth business, and it will become a business with little future.

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2021-11-15/green-mines-a-renewable-energy-evolution/100613266

 

When I was consulting to the mines a good friend was doing velocity surveys for wind power.  He said wind cost 4 times gas turbines. Never quite sure what he was about but he did say it was an expensive installation (interest on investment?,) And you still need to have a gas or diesel power plant.  

The overwhelming amount of energy is in trucks and loaders....a solar panel on the roof of the trucks, or maybe a wind turbine?  One panel in a sunlit day produces enough energy to drive a Tesla 4km.  5MW motor on a dump vehicle may be just too much LoL

[turboplanner]

1 hour ago, Geoff_H said:

When I was consulting to the mines a good friend was doing velocity surveys for wind power.  He said wind cost 4 times gas turbines. Never quite sure what he was about but he did say it was an expensive installation (interest on investment?,) And you still need to have a gas or diesel power plant.  

The overwhelming amount of energy is in trucks and loaders....a solar panel on the roof of the trucks, or maybe a wind turbine?  One panel in a sunlit day produces enough energy to drive a Tesla 4km.  5MW motor on a dump vehicle may be just too much LoL

I don't know, but suspect the mines run 3 shifts a day so no time for charging 700 tonne trucks.  They are currently diesel/electric (the electric motors give them 100% torque at zero - perfect for optimum startability and there is no highway cycle.

[danny_galaga]

Hydrogen- specialised machinery. Heavy transport.

Battery- cars, motorbikes. Some light aircraft.

Oil- shipping, trains, jets.

 

 

[Ian]

 

Nuclear ships may make a comeback. It's not as if it a new idea and shipping generates more CO2 than the entire aviation industry.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2020/11/09/international-marine-shipping-industry-considers-nuclear-propulsion/?sh=4bf84fcf562c

[Old Koreelah]

Beat me why big ships don’t use the wind. A large ‘chute sent high into strong winds, controlled by AI would save fuel and speed voyages.

[Ian]

1 minute ago, Old Koreelah said:

Beat me why big ships don’t use the wind. A large ‘chute sent high into strong winds, controlled by AI would save fuel and speed voyages.

Where the winds go the ships don't go so much. When ships used wind the roaring forties were popular.

[Old Koreelah]

Modern sails can propel vessels at big angles off the prevailing wind.

So why don’t commercial ships use wind?

As I’ve been saying for yonks: oil is too cheap.

[Flightrite]

Large vessels like container ships have scheds, and operate in huge seas sometimes, relying on wind to power them is totally impracticable for that type of operation otherwise there would be a shortage of sail cloth!😂

Edited December 9, 2021 by Flightrite

[Old Koreelah]

9 hours ago, Flightrite said:

Large vessels like container ships have scheds, and operate in huge seas sometimes, relying on wind to power them is totally impracticable for that type of operation otherwise there would be a shortage of sail cloth!😂

My friends who have spent time on large cargo ships tell of long, boring voyages with steady winds, ideal opportunities for using some wind-assistance to reduce fuel burn and perhaps add speed.

If controlled buy AI, neither of your objections should be of concern.

[turboplanner]

19 minutes ago, Old Koreelah said:

My friends who have spent time on large cargo ships tell of long, boring voyages with steady winds, ideal opportunities for using some wind-assistance to reduce fuel burn and perhaps add speed.

If controlled buy AI, neither of your objections should be of concern.

Fuel is a critical facto with ships,  but canvas and rigging has obvious issues with training, fire and loading/unloading cargo as well as hull shape. What was trialled a few years ago were  vertical cylinder "sails" which avoided those problems. When the cylinders were spinning they acted as sails. Some were fitted to cruise ships as a means of reducing their fuel consumption.

Similar cylinders have also been trialled as aircraft wings.

The trend didn't catch on, but I'm not sure why; perhaps the fuel lost in spinning them offset the gain through sailing.

[aro]

Meanwhile, there are reports that Australia will run out of Adblue in February.

 

Maybe those electric trucks weren't such a bad idea.

[Ian]

53 minutes ago, Old Koreelah said:

My friends who have spent time on large cargo ships tell of long, boring voyages with steady winds, ideal opportunities for using some wind-assistance to reduce fuel burn and perhaps add speed.

Large parachute type sails were developed as well. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SkySails

Wind suffer from the same issues on the sea as on land, intermittency so the gains aren't as large on some routes as they are on others.

 

[turboplanner]

6 minutes ago, aro said:

Meanwhile, there are reports that Australia will run out of Adblue in February.

 

Maybe those electric trucks weren't such a bad idea.

AdBlue is just one brand of Urea.  

We used a Japanese urea product to take black smoke out of trucks when it was known as PFM (Pure XXXXXXX Magic).

[aro]

36 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

AdBlue is just one brand of Urea.  

 

Yes. China has banned exports of urea (80% of Australia's supplies), and there is a global urea shortage. As a result, there are reports that Australia will run out of Adblue in February.

[spacesailor]

UREA

Are you taking the Pxxx !.

Uric aci or a product very similar is used in gardening, or males peeing under the citrus tree. 

Also is said to Very harmful to your lliver !.

Thousands of males can supply a vast amount of it, after a night on the grog !.  LoL

Also used in tanning leather.

spacesailor

[aro]

16 minutes ago, spacesailor said:

Uric aci or a product very similar is used in gardening, or males peeing under the citrus tree

China has apparently banned exporting it so that it can be used in fertilizer in China.

 

I hare to think of the urine consumption required by a truck to replace it!