Future fuel sources

[pmccarthy]

This weeks New Scientist had an article on emissions from shipping and discussed wind assistance, which can reduce fuel consumption by up to 20%.

[turboplanner]

50 minutes ago, aro said:

China has apparently banned exporting it so that it can be used in fertilizer in China.

I hare to think of the urine consumption required by a truck to replace it!

European vehicles are the big users of urea, which technically allows them to use older, more powerful engines that would not comply with current emissions. They drip feed urea into the exhaust system downstream of the engine, and the urea brings the exhaust emissions up to current standard.  The older engones burn less fuel.

 

US and Japanese engines burn the emissions using EGR (Exhaust Gas Recirculation) but at the cost of less power than they used to have, and burning more fuel. The power ratings are increased to where they need to be over time with upgrades.

 

So in Australia we have a crossover with the majority of trucks running EGR, so not affected by the 80% drop off from China.

 

The 80% may still be a problem as you say, for applications where European is the best solution, and that can affect Australians - e.g. weekly garbage pickup.

 

What will be interesting is if what will happen if urea does run out. The urea injector is independent of the engine so there's no problem in continuing to drive without urea (other than the huge fines). Maybe the Federal Government could authorise them to run pending a new supply industry?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[danny_galaga]

17 hours ago, Ian said:

 

Nuclear ships may make a comeback. It's not as if it a new idea and shipping generates more CO2 than the entire aviation industry.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2020/11/09/international-marine-shipping-industry-considers-nuclear-propulsion/?sh=4bf84fcf562c

Was just thinking about SS savannah yesterday. You have to put aside cost of nuclear and remember why the world is turning away from fossil fuels. Then it could be a viable proposition. Whatever we do, things will get more expensive. Those things only seem relatively cheap now because we aren't counting the cost of damaging the planet. 

[Old Koreelah]

40 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

What will be interesting is if what will happen if urea does run out. The urea injector is independent of the engine so there's no problem in continuing to drive without urea (other than the huge fines). Maybe the Federal Government could authorise them to run pending a new supply industry?

It amazes me how our leaders have allowed this country to become so dependent on regular imports of critical items like oil, fertilizers and now urea for Ad Blue. Time to encourage local production.

[facthunter]

Because they see their job as part time and are there for the spoils of Office rather than doing a responsible job.. The idea Capital will fix everything if left alone is getting pretty shaky.. IF you  don't watch what  they are doing they will charge you for the air you breathe, the rain  and anything they can organise to siphon off a tariff on.   Nev

[turboplanner]

55 minutes ago, Old Koreelah said:

It amazes me how our leaders have allowed this country to become so dependent on regular imports of critical items like oil, fertilizers and now urea for Ad Blue. Time to encourage local production.

A representative from Perkins Diesel came out from England a few years ago to discuss chronic problems with their engines at a Bus Operator's conference. One of the problems was exhaust manifold cracking. The Perkins man explained that Australian operaors where extending the wheelbases and upping passengers from 45 to 51 and this was making the engines work harder and cracking the manifolds which didn't crack anywhere else in the world where bus operators stuck to the 45 passengers it was built for. Someone got up and said "Well what are you going to do about it?" and the Perkins man said "Let's put it this way; the entire Australian market is filled by start of production to morning tea break on one day of the year; what do you think they're going to do?

 

At one stage we were building 12 trucks a day in the most efficient GM truck plant in the world. We had to shut that one down and pull product from one that produced one every 20 seconds. 

 

We just can't get the production runs to produce the volume which amortises costs fast enough.

 

We got close a few times, but the majority of the Australian customer based buys the cheapest product without question.

 

Someone has to put their hand up to manufacture something locally, then when they do that, the government can step in and assist them to employ more labour but that doesn't happen often because there's more money to be made distributing a cheaper overseas produced product.

[onetrack]

There are urea production facilities planned for Australia, utilising our natural gas supplies. However, with an energy-hungry world demanding nearly all our LNG at extremely high prices (LNG prices have doubled recently), the case for turning NG into urea, is now not as attractive as just selling it on the open world market, for fuel use.

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2021-01-12/strike-energy-plans-urea-fertiliser-plant-burrup-peninsula/13051000

[turboplanner]

6 hours ago, onetrack said:

There are urea production facilities planned for Australia, utilising our natural gas supplies. However, with an energy-hungry world demanding nearly all our LNG at extremely high prices (LNG prices have doubled recently), the case for turning NG into urea, is now not as attractive as just selling it on the open world market, for fuel use.

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2021-01-12/strike-energy-plans-urea-fertiliser-plant-burrup-peninsula/13051000

The vast majority of trucks are EGR, so if there is going to be a problem the market will just shift to buying EGR.

[danny_galaga]

https://thedriven.io/2021/12/10/e-fuels-lose-race-to-clean-up-cars-study-shows-them-to-be-as-polluting-as-petrol/amp/

 

 

[Ian]

1 minute ago, danny_galaga said:

https://thedriven.io/2021/12/10/e-fuels-lose-race-to-clean-up-cars-study-shows-them-to-be-as-polluting-as-petrol/amp/

That's a bit of a no-brainer, NO is produced by the combustion process rather than anything inherent to the fuel, the higher the combustion temperature the more NO. It a bit like saying that poos from synthetic meat still smell bad.

The strange thing is that they don't actually say what the e-fuel was, based on the emissions with the higher ammonia level it looks like they were included an ammonia based fuel.

Diesel engines produce more NO than equivalent petrol engines simply because the combustion temperature is higher than petrol engines can achieve. This also provides greater efficiency due to the laws of thermodynamics.

It really depends on your focus, are we trying to improve emissions across the board or are we just trying to fix the greenhouse gas issue. If its the later then it's irrelevant.

 

[facthunter]

To  reduce NOx the EGR lowers combustion temps and power output and then you use MORE fuel and CO2 consequences.  NOx is more a problem in cities and densely populated areas. Nev

[spacesailor]

And that E G R really sucks, see a hill, foot down, get to that hill, and floor it.

The same vehicle with a blanking plate, gets half way up the hill Without putting pedal to the metal. 

AND WHAT AN IMPROVEMENT TO YOUR ECONOMY. From 14.5 lph, down to 12 lph klmts.

Just keeping that turbo spinning helps the econom.

spacesailor

 

 

[Ian]

4 hours ago, facthunter said:

To  reduce NOx the EGR lowers combustion temps and power output and then you use MORE fuel and CO2 consequences.  NOx is more a problem in cities and densely populated areas. Nev

It's not only the cooler temperatures, the extra exhaust gasses reduce the oxygen concentration and perturb the "equilibrium reaction" pushing it to the left. So less NOX produced. 

[turboplanner]

13 minutes ago, spacesailor said:

And that E G R really sucks, see a hill, foot down, get to that hill, and floor it.

The same vehicle with a blanking plate, gets half way up the hill Without putting pedal to the metal. 

AND WHAT AN IMPROVEMENT TO YOUR ECONOMY. From 14.5 lph, down to 12 lph klmts.

Just keeping that turbo spinning helps the econom.

spacesailor

 

 

What's the blanking plate cost if you get caught up in an audit?
 

[spacesailor]

I chickened out & removed my blanking plate, when traveling South Australia.

That,s were they fined All the Jackaroo,s for not having compliance for the dicky seats.

Plus a lot more wasted lube oil, with E G R, 5,000 ks oil change.

Most diesels go 10 000, without an E G R .

Oil gets very black with an egr, even at 5,000 k,

 but without it,s looks cleaner at 7,000 ks.

spacesailor

 

Edited December 11, 2021 by spacesailor
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