ASIC cards and issues

[Ian]

ASIC cards and the associated protocols are fundamentally broken. If we assume that there is a net benefit from the process there is an enormous shortfall in the actual implementation which negates any net benefit. Below is a list of issues

• The card is a "Dumb Card" essentially just a piece of plastic with a photo easily copied
• A smart card solution would provide a secure element which could provide a strong identity and be readable via a mobile phone and provide physical access. For instance a security guard could check the card using an app on their phone.
• Standard such as PIV already provide the basis for an strong electronic identity
• Current ASIC clearances are for two years, Secret and Top Secret clearances are valid for 10 years and licenses are valid for 5 years, passports are valid for 10 years.
• Currently gate access codes tend to be postcodes, written inside the gate or some other really weak access contols which aren't connected back to the person getting access.
• Some local councils are even claiming that anyone airside needs a visitors pass when they're escorted. Does this apply to RPL passengers or just GA passengers when they embark and disembark?
• The implementations aren't even penetration tested or required to undergo paper based efficacy evaluations. It's a bit of a shambles.

 

What I'd like to understand is, have any of the bodies which represent General Aviation actually raised any the above with the  powers that be. Because in it's current state the whole ASIC system doesn't actually achieve any of the outcomes which it's trying to achieve, all it is an annoyance and sending a couple of local council flunkies on a power trip.

Can we lobby anyone with the slightest bit of a clue in this regard?

[mkennard]

Funny you mention "Pen Tested" because I've never been asked airside unless a couple of airports trying to get out the gate and you need to call a number. They only asked for the card number.

[skippydiesel]

Maaaate Ian - 

I, like so many other patriotic/concerned aviators, applied for an ASIC when the legislation/cards were first implemented and then applied for the extension (5 ? years in total).

Was never asked for my card while it was valid (one enquiry after lapsed, didn't actually want to see it just confirmation I had one & of course I did).

Airport (RPT)  operators all over the nation put in some forme of (usually token) security, hired a security guard or appointed the lawn mower man as security - a wasted expenditure.

The whole ill conceived idea/plan is  without merit (exception being major air ports) 

This topic has been done to death. ASIC has no support in the GA/RAA community and yet our respective organisations & the Gov have done nothing about removing it.

In the well tried tradition of Australian response to meaningless legislation, it is just being ignored in most (not quit all) minor RPT airports.

My advise - dont bother with getting an ASIC. If you believe an airport (you cant avoid) might still be acting on ASIC, phone ahead, requesting a security escort to/from your aircraft.

[Ian]

10 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

My advise - dont bother with getting an ASIC. If you believe an airport (you cant avoid) might still be acting on ASIC, phone ahead, requesting a security escort to/from your aircraft.

Basically it's pretty much mandatory when getting your flight training as you're are flying into major airports. What I didn't understand until later was how half arsed and clueless the whole scheme was.

The whole point is if you want to realize the benefits you need to make the system revolve around the identity piece, the ASIC card that you've created. That can't happen at the moment because it's such a poor implementation. The security guard who you ring can't actually verify your identity effectively.

How does the system work with overseas pilots and aircrew. How do plane inspections work?

 

 

[MattP]

Ah ASIC cards. You could always grab a bunch of $50 notes and burn them for a similar effect. I just treat it as another in a line of not cheap things required to aviate and get on with it.

 

My last renewal was fairly painless and all online, with only the ID checks at pick up required, so overall without arguing the actual need for one / utility of the whole ASIC system, it wasn't too much of a drama.

 

I did get caught out years ago without one landing at an RPT serviced field for an unscheduled diversion due to bladder endurance problems, by the time I finally offered to either wet the security guys pants or for him to let me use the facilities, I figured any expense was worth not having to hold on / argue the point in future 😉

 

I do draw the line at hi-viz vests though!

[pmccarthy]

You need an ASIC to hold a GA license. It’s is nonsense.

[PapaFox]

1 hour ago, pmccarthy said:

You need an ASIC to hold a GA license. It’s is nonsense.

Not quite. You need to have a security check, so an AVID is the minimum, ASIC is optional if needed

[Ian]

As stated I wouldn't mind the process if it had an actual outcome. However it's so poorly implemented that it just doesn't deliver.

[walrus]

You may find you cannot hire an aircraft without an ASIC. That was the final straw for me at a certain club that had been taking my annual subscriptions for years.

[FlyBoy1960]

This was from 8 years ago    https://www.change.org/p/australian-federal-government-remove-asic-cards-entirely

 

Only got 1,600 signatures

[Student Pilot]

2 hours ago, PapaFox said:

Not quite. You need to have a security check, so an AVID is the minimum, ASIC is optional if needed

When you start flying ASIO open a file on you (also with a firearms license, powder ticket and a swag of other things), how many security checks do they want?

[Thruster88]

I would like to think all Australians are being back ground checked to the same level as the average aircraft owner or pilot. How much computing power is required for an BS ASIC check?

[Yenn]

You don't seem to realize that Australia is governed by the bureaucracy. It doesn't matter that things are stupid, don't work and are counter productive, what matters is that the bureaucracy has control. normally you would think that the bureaucracy was under some sort of control by the government, but that is not the case.

Ask your federal MP to do something and he will come back with some lame excuse that there is nothing that can be done.

The politicians don't care because if they need an ASIC, they will get it from government coffers with no problems. They will not look into why we need an ASIC or whether it is of any use or not, because that would deter them from feathering their nest and getting re elected.

Wherever you look you will see absolutely stupid things done by bureaucrats for no good reason and they will always make up some ridiculous reason for their case. Such as it is being done to comply with ICAO requirements, followed by a load of rubbish and at the end in small print it will state that it does not comply with ICAO or whatever they are citeing.

[waraton]

What are the consequences of not having one as a recreational pilot accessing these airfields? I have never heard of anyone being carted off or fined, heard stories about a few verbal's with council staff and that's about it. 

[skippydiesel]

8 hours ago, pmccarthy said:

You need an ASIC to hold a GA license. It’s is nonsense.

Well I have held a GA PPL for around 30 years now - reactivated it recently to do my tail wheel endorsement. All that was required was a current medical no recollection of any security check or ASIC type action.

[jackc]

IF CASA have some pull on this ASIC Card b/s they may be a chance that the new boss Pip Spence may get a chance to look closer, rumour has it she has been working on quite a few things that GA and RAaus may benefit from, but it will be CASA driven.

[skippydiesel]

1 hour ago, waraton said:

What are the consequences of not having one as a recreational pilot accessing these airfields? I have never heard of anyone being carted off or fined, heard stories about a few verbal's with council staff and that's about it. 

Probably max security cell with no possibility of parole for life - sorry the hole  subject is so ridiculous I dont have a proper answear for you.

[jackc]

Your skills of negotiation need to come to the fore, IF you don’t have a card?

[KRviator]

"I am not required to hold an ASIC as I do not regularly fly into security controlled airports" closely followed by "As it is outside the Traffic Period defined in the Regulations, I am not required to display an ASIC" [ATSI Regulations 3.03] (The Traffic Period is -2 Hours of an RPT scheduled arrival to +2 hours from its' scheduled departure). 

Just because it is "Security Controlled" means diddly if there's no scheduled RPT (at all) or that day. No RPT? No ASIC.

[Student Pilot]

14 hours ago, jackc said:

IF CASA have some pull on this ASIC Card b/s they may be a chance that the new boss Pip Spence may get a chance to look closer, rumour has it she has been working on quite a few things that GA and RAaus may benefit from, but it will be CASA driven.

CASA doing something that benefits GA and RAA? Never going to happen.

A good start would be to acknowledge the injustices and bad behavior of the past, that will never happen either. 

[jackc]

760 MTOW is on its way……they could have told us to all go suck eggs?

[facthunter]

It was the CASA who originally suggested 762 Kgs. Nev

[Ian]

13 hours ago, KRviator said:

"I am not required to hold an ASIC as I do not regularly fly into security controlled airports" closely followed by "As it is outside the Traffic Period defined in the Regulations, I am not required to display an ASIC" [ATSI Regulations 3.03] (The Traffic Period is -2 Hours of an RPT scheduled arrival to +2 hours from its' scheduled departure). 

Quote

"traffic period" , for a security controlled airport, means a period that begins 2 hours before the scheduled time of arrival, and ends 2 hours after the actual time of departure, of a scheduled air service that operates to or from the airport.

You may find yourself in breach of the local security regulations though, trying to argue legal doctrine with a security guard may be painful. Also it appears that some airports require any visitors to get local security passes as well. The problem is that some local councils have implemented security policies under the guise of the ATSI regulations and believe that any breach of them is a Federal issue.

[facthunter]

I'm of the belief that the local security committee or whatever it's called can have a great deal of input to the rules they apply to their particular situation.. You only need some power addicted small mentality Nong to get in there and play tin Hitler with the show. I've seen this happen myself and at places RPT NEVER land at.. It all works to kill off Interest in Aviation.  Nev

[KRviator]

2 hours ago, Ian said:

The problem is that some local councils have implemented security policies under the guise of the ATSI regulations and believe that any breach of them is a Federal issue.

True - but remember, they are typically only security guards. They do not have powers of arrest beyond what you or I do, under s.100 of LEPRA, so if they do want to get belligerent, call their bluff. "Yeah, righto mate, arrest me then...No? Not going to? Then what are we doing having this discussion...? I'm going to take a piss, refuel and be on my way, TTFN."

 

Though I've just had a thought about that whole Traffic Period thing... -2H ETA to +2 ATD, what if it's going to layover overnight? Is 0100 the next day within the Traffic Period?!? And who's to say that Qlink 1535 from Syd-Dbo flown by a Dash-8-300 really is going to fly QLink 1536 from Dbo-Syd when it could be by a Q400 that's been on the stand overnight? That's an awfully big assumption...

Meh, Option 4 is always to ask forgiveness. Always easier than asking permission! 😉