Upset Recovery Training and Stalls.

[APenNameAndThatA]

On 10/8/2022 at 8:42 AM, facthunter said:

Sorry, there's so many factual errors there and wrong assumptions I don't know where to start. Get sources of more reliability. Nev

I would really appreciate it if you would make a start. 

[facthunter]

No one else has bothered (I  think) so I won't be.  Don't take it as an insult but really there's a lot if BS out there. Hang in, but dig deeper.   Since I started here, 2006 I've posted lots of stuff on these matters. Nev

[peterg]

Seems a bit unreasonable - Apen... has posted a simple request.

 

5 hours ago, facthunter said:

No one else has bothered

 

This has never stopped you in the past - prolific comments on far-reaching topics seems to be the norm.

 

Why stop now?

 

[facthunter]

 My main purpose here has been to improve the safe operation of aircraft. Detailed  and complex things have to be cautiously explained so there is no likelihood of them being misinterpreted. Some wrong concept can bring you down. not necessarily immediately but when you're under pressure, more likely. The best way is face to face  with a good Instructor. Anyone can put anything on U tube and "I read somewhere" often precludes a lot of rubbish. There's plenty of it out there. Nev

[Thruster88]

On 06/08/2022 at 5:01 PM, Yenn said:

Yes VNe is based on one deflection at a time and is no guarantee that the airframe will stand up to two deflections. A Cessna might I think because very little seems to happen with full deflection of a control for a short time, whereas some of our lighter recreational and also high performance planes deflect immediately.

Vne is the speed that must not be exceeded in smooth air with very minimal control inputs, it is 180knots for an RV6 and 150knots for a Beech 23.

 

Va is max maneuvering speed, the speed at which full or abrupt control inputs can be made. There is no limit on multiple control inputs in the Beech 23 POH but common sense should prevail. It is only 118knots for the RV6 and the Beech23. This would suggest that the Beech 23 is just as strong as the RV6, not necessarily so because it is all about stall speed protection of the airframe and effectiveness of controls. The Beech has a higher stall speed.  

 

Know your aircraft, read the Pilots Operating Handbook or flight manual.

Edited August 13, 2022 by Thruster88

[Thruster88]

On 06/08/2022 at 8:21 PM, APenNameAndThatA said:

Im not saying you’re wrong, but this is page 18 of Bob Tait’s Volume 1 of RPL/PPL. “Pulling back on the control column … higher nose attitude” What he said was true except for stalls, spins, spiral dives and inverted flight. It matters because what you learn first sticks. 

The thing is students just need the basics in the beginning. There is enough to learn at the start without adding stalls, spins, spiral dives and inverted flight. 

 

If you learn the basic concepts correctly you will not be in a stall, spin, spiral dive or inverted flight unless that is what you intended.  

[djpacro]

10 minutes ago, Thruster88 said:

Vne is the speed that must not be exceeded in smooth air with very minimal control inputs .....

 

Va is max maneuvering speed, the speed at which full or abrupt control inputs can be made. .... because it is all about stall speed protection of the airframe .......

I was at a UPRT Providers Conference sponsored by CASA and aircraft insurance companies last month. My presentation included some comments on the "cesspit of misinformation, half-baked truths and misshapen facts" mentioned in this article https://www.flightsafetyaustralia.com/2017/12/the-unreachables-are-they-unteachable/

 

For a start: Vne is the red-line speed or the never-exceed speed - the key word is "never".

 

At that conference, I specifically discussed the misinformation around regarding the design manoeuvering speed, Va, which is specified by the airworthiness design regulations FAR 23 and explained succintly in FAA Advisory Circular 23-19:

Newly designed and certified aeroplanes should have a Vo, the operating manoeuvering speed which is what many pilots believe Va is. 

 

I also mentioned some general issues with spin training in this country and made some recommendations regarding training of spin instructors. The report on the Cessna 150 spin accident published by the ATSB recently served to emphasise my recommendations.

[APenNameAndThatA]

8 hours ago, facthunter said:

No one else has bothered (I  think) so I won't be.  Don't take it as an insult but really there's a lot if BS out there. Hang in, but dig deeper.   Since I started here, 2006 I've posted lots of stuff on these matters. Nev

Those were pretty much my own thoughts, that people should be taught properly about the elevator from the start. What are you talking about with “dig deeper”? I’m not going to review the literature about how to teach people to fly. What factual errors? 

[APenNameAndThatA]

8 hours ago, facthunter said:

No one else has bothered (I  think) so I won't be.  Don't take it as an insult but really there's a lot if BS out there. Hang in, but dig deeper.   Since I started here, 2006 I've posted lots of stuff on these matters. Nev

I don’t take anything as an insult, because social media is social media. But, saying something is wrong and refusing to say why is rude. Also, the idea that things can’t be discussed on forums is just silly. Forums and books are both written material after all. 

[aro]

25 minutes ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

But, saying something is wrong and refusing to say why is rude.

The problem is you run up against Brandolini's law AKA the bullshit asymmetry syndrome.

 

It takes a lot more effort to explain why something is wrong than it did to post the wrong information in the first place.

[Garfly]

2 hours ago, aro said:

The problem is you run up against Brandolini's law AKA the bullshit asymmetry syndrome.

It takes a lot more effort to explain why something is wrong than it did to post the wrong information in the first place.

Hey, Officer Brandolini, that ain't no excuse for leaving the guy's charge-sheet blank.    ;- )

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 13, 2022 by Garfly