Jabiru a Good Buy?

[Jeffmel]

Background: I am a student, close to get my RPC. I will then get my nav endorsment and progress to PPL at least, maybe CPL.

 

My school is selling their old Jabiru J160, engien has done close to 1000 hrs, at which time it requires an over haul. It costs around $8k and it will last another 1000 hrs. 25 hrly oil change in between maybe $150 each time. 

 

After some simple caculation this works well for me. But Ive also heard many bad stories about their service cost and engine reliability. 

 

Any advice?

Edited December 15, 2021 by Jeffmel

[KRviator]

Paraphrasing from a PPrune post: The one plane you don't want to fly in due to their engine reliability is a Jabiru...However, the one plane you DO want to fly in, should you have to crash is a Jabiru! 

Depends on what the school is asking though. A J160 for around $30K or so isn't a bad "first plane". I'd certainly consider one as a "commuter" should I get a new job that's a 3H drive or 1H flight away.

[RFguy]

Jeff

J160 is a nice plane for a first plane, they are a speedbird.  30k is a good deal....

 

while a training plane has been bounced down the runway all its life, it will have been well maintained (or required to have been, anyway) 

 

Their minimum flying speed is a bit faster than the other jabs like 170/230, but I think its a fine first plane.

 

How many hours has the airframe got, total time ???? you could be up for teleflex cables , undercarriage bolts, etc if it is very high hour. 
is it a B or a C ?

Has it got a wooden or composite prop ?

 

Rob is right- the Jabiru is very crashworthy. And it will never rust. and they are QUIET inside compared to metal bodied airplanes. Parts are plentiful. Advice is plentiful god and bad. 

 

The wing and length to tail are well proportioned on that aircraft IMO.  

 

-glen
(J230 owner, maintainer) 

 

Edited December 15, 2021 by RFguy

[Jeffmel]

5 hours ago, RFguy said:

Jeff

J160 is a nice plane for a first plane, they are a speedbird.  30k is a good deal....

 

while a training plane has been bounced down the runway all its life, it will have been well maintained (or required to have been, anyway) 

 

Their minimum flying speed is a bit faster than the other jabs like 170/230, but I think its a fine first plane.

 

How many hours has the airframe got, total time ???? you could be up for teleflex cables , undercarriage bolts, etc if it is very high hour. 
is it a B or a C ?

Has it got a wooden or composite prop ?

 

Rob is right- the Jabiru is very crashworthy. And it will never rust. and they are QUIET inside compared to metal bodied airplanes. Parts are plentiful. Advice is plentiful god and bad. 

 

The wing and length to tail are well proportioned on that aircraft IMO.  

 

-glen
(J230 owner, maintainer) 

 

TTIS  6600hrs, they put a new engine in it, has done 900 hrs. 

 

wooden prop, interior is a bit worn but acceptable as it is a 10 yrs old plane. maybe a problem when selling the plane but i'm not worring too much 

 

personally I like it, but some of the instructors are not very happy..

[planedriver]

"Many a good tune has been played on and old fiddle" comes to mind, providing it's been reasonably well cared for. 

We all, (instructors included) would normally appreciate flying something far newer.

However, if you are prepared to accept that it is not a newie, many an aircraft that have seen many thousands of hours service are still very useable.

Just look at those that fly interstate on freight runs every night for example. well over 30yrs service and still going strong.

Flying club aircraft that are a hell of a lot older still are commonplace despite all the heavy handling.

Providing all maintenance is up to scratch, I for one would give it serious consideration.

That's just my opinion.

The Jabiru is certainly one tough little bird when it comes to it's air frame. Providing the engine and other essentials have been well cared for and looked after, i'd fly it tomorrow.

Get it checked out by someone very familiar with the type and take it from there.

 

Edited December 15, 2021 by planedriver

[RFguy]

Hi Jeff

That is a high TTAF (total time airframe) count.

There wouuld most certainly be a multitude of important parts that must be inspected or reaplced at 4-5k hours.

hinges, aileron stick control tube, teleflex cables , undercarriage bolts, wing bolts maybe , 

 

I think you are going to need to look very carefully at all the maintenance paper work.  Offer perhaps 25k.... ? 
ALSO- My suggestion is dont F. around with a rebuild - put a Gen4 engine in it and a composite prop- the composite prop is a fairly good performance gain. 

You can get 1k for the engine no problem.  The existing engine you have ,you could get another 100 hours out of it most likely with a tony bit of maintenance.  I would suggest pull the heads off, ream/clean the valve guuides out, check tappet clearances and put it back together. If that hasnt been done recently (in the past 200 hours) I think they are time bombs.

 

There are plenty of Jabiru SKs, LSA55s etc for sale also,  I think they are fine planes and you can get one in a very well cared for conditon for 20k.
Take Bruce's for sale right now , for example . owner builder, metriculous maintainer.

The other thing- I wouldnt think too far ahead for a first plane... I think be prepared to get a lower end first plane 

My first plane I wanted a do-everything plane - so I got a J230, but the reality is, all I really needed  to enjoy my flying was something like a J120, SK, LSA55, etc just to get up in the air, fly 1.5 - 2 hours around the local region.....  

 

the other thing is, flying different planes is good for your development as a pilot

 

Glen


 

Edited December 15, 2021 by RFguy

[Flightrite]

The other thing to consider when buying a high time machine is resale, a high time airframe in a flying school environment is something most shy away from. 
like that old saying....you get what you paid for.

[Thruster88]

I would agree with factoring a new gen4 engine plus all the installation costs into the deal. It may not even be possible to rebuild the existing engine. Consider the total cost and what the realistic resale value will then be.  

[planedriver]

And what is the true value of the hours that you expect to get out of it, as opposed to using someone else's aircraft?.

[skippydiesel]

All very good advice. I would add;

 

The aircraft you learn in tends to be the aircraft you would like to fly/own, however this emotional bias (its definitely not logic) blinds you to all the other good aircraft, many of which will have very much better handling/performance/operational cost/resale value.

 

I would strongly recommend that;

 

You sit down with a clean sheet of paper - list all the pros/cons (some of which will be purchase cost, running cost, re sale value, performance characteristics, etc etc).

Discuss list with at least two knowlegiable persons - make adjustments accordingly.

Compare the attributes and deficiencies of your target aircraft (Jab) with what might be available in the Au market place

 

After sufficient consultation decide on objective/gaol and go for IT!

 

 

[Jeffmel]

2 hours ago, RFguy said:

Hi Jeff

That is a high TTAF (total time airframe) count.

There wouuld most certainly be a multitude of important parts that must be inspected or reaplced at 4-5k hours.

hinges, aileron stick control tube, teleflex cables , undercarriage bolts, wing bolts maybe , 

 

I think you are going to need to look very carefully at all the maintenance paper work.  Offer perhaps 25k.... ? 
ALSO- My suggestion is dont F. around with a rebuild - put a Gen4 engine in it and a composite prop- the composite prop is a fairly good performance gain. 

You can get 1k for the engine no problem.  The existing engine you have ,you could get another 100 hours out of it most likely with a tony bit of maintenance.  I would suggest pull the heads off, ream/clean the valve guuides out, check tappet clearances and put it back together. If that hasnt been done recently (in the past 200 hours) I think they are time bombs.

 

There are plenty of Jabiru SKs, LSA55s etc for sale also,  I think they are fine planes and you can get one in a very well cared for conditon for 20k.
Take Bruce's for sale right now , for example . owner builder, metriculous maintainer.

The other thing- I wouldnt think too far ahead for a first plane... I think be prepared to get a lower end first plane 

My first plane I wanted a do-everything plane - so I got a J230, but the reality is, all I really needed  to enjoy my flying was something like a J120, SK, LSA55, etc just to get up in the air, fly 1.5 - 2 hours around the local region.....  

 

the other thing is, flying different planes is good for your development as a pilot

 

Glen


 

Glen,

 

Appreciate your advice. It has a Gen 4 engine, hence while the TTAF is high, the engine has done only 800hrs. 

 

There are not much choice in the $25-30k range and instructors may not be willing to fly in other planes if I do get another one from somewhere else. 

 

Another thing is, my sole purpose of purchasing the Jabiru is to lower My cost in getting my PPL / CPL.  So maintenance and resell are my main concerns. I do plan to hire other planes once in a while for stuff like family trips or take mates up into the sky and etc. 

[Jeffmel]

1 hour ago, planedriver said:

And what is the true value of the hours that you expect to get out of it, as opposed to using someone else's aircraft?.

I'll say at lease 250 hrs. That includes training needed to get my CPL and some recreational use. 

[RFguy]

Hi Jeff. Well that's good because then the engine mount difference has been sorted.

Probably an EARLY gen4. it likely needs the piston upgrades.   They went to stronger pistons following a few failures.

 

If you are going onto PPL.CPL, I would have thought you are going to want to be flying a VH airplane, not a J160. 

My advice. before thinking about anything....

 

* Get your RPC and NAVs first.*  

 

Then, buy a cheap RA-AUS airplane to improve your skills and maintain currency, get a couple of hundred hours up in that ........  and meanwhile rent the VH airplane for your CPL.... or after very careful assessment   a Cherokee or a Cessna to buy- but you are looking at 4 x the money of a Jabiru you can get hours and skills up in.

 

 

 

[facthunter]

With hangarage and insurance you might find it's NOT going to help much in the big scheme of things. IF you want CPL try to do that the best way and keep the hours down to close to the minimum  but do  a PIFR rating. IF you want to get employed your experience will be more accepted if it's in a variety of suitable GA aircraft. Recovery from unusual attitudes I consider ESSENTIAL for anyone serious about flying commercially. Nev

[skippydiesel]

RFguy   - RAA hour count toward GA licensing however dont think endorsements  transfer RAA to GAA.  All GAA hrs & endorsements transfer to RAA.

 

In my opinion RAA Certificate is an excellent start point for any aspiring  fixed wing pilot. Jabs in particular give you skills /experience that your regular pussy cat GAA training aircraft are unlikely to confer.

[RossK]

14 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

RFguy   - RAA hour count toward GA licensing however dont think endorsements  transfer RAA to GAA.  All GAA hrs & endorsements transfer to RAA.

 

In my opinion RAA Certificate is an excellent start point for any aspiring  fixed wing pilot. Jabs in particular give you skills /experience that your regular pussy cat GAA training aircraft are unlikely to confer.

Last time I checked (with a CFI), RPC with Nav converts to RPL with Nav with some paperwork and proof to a CFI that you can fly a GA Aircraft.

So typically 3-5 hours in a Warrior or C152 will get it done.

 

but I could be wrong, it happens occasionally 😁

[facthunter]

I understood the RAAus Nav training was well below the GA one, so no direct exchange/ crediting . Only works GA to Certificate. Nev

Edited December 16, 2021 by facthunter

[RFguy]

naa it is....   That's  RPL of course equiv, not PPL equiv

 

I would suggest getting 50 hour solo under your belt in varied conditions before the RPL flight test. That way you can nail it.

 

I'd suggest spend some time with your instructor regularly to set right any bad habits you might be developing by yourself (I have) .

[Jeffmel]

42 minutes ago, RossK said:

Last time I checked (with a CFI), RPC with Nav converts to RPL with Nav with some paperwork and proof to a CFI that you can fly a GA Aircraft.

So typically 3-5 hours in a Warrior or C152 will get it done.

 

but I could be wrong, it happens occasionally 😁

I was told the same. 

 

The cheapest and quickest way of is get RPC, nav and pax endorsement, then convert to RPL.

 

After the conversation, can I still fly an RA and accumulate the hrs into GA, I'm not sure

[Kenlsa]

SK 15-20K good cheap aircraft that a lot of us learned in.

SP 470 or 500 for 25-30k with plenty of hours left on the motor with a good useful load.

19/28 reg will be way cheaper than a 55/24 so look for those.

Do not over commit or get seduced by sex appeal, horse power, high speed (the sales advertising is open to question)

 

The above Jabs will do 95 to 100 kts with the old wooden 44 pitch prop at 11 to 12lt/hr of mogas and easy to work on.

 

Ken

[turboplanner]

1 hour ago, Jeffmel said:

I was told the same. 

 

The cheapest and quickest way of is get RPC, nav and pax endorsement, then convert to RPL.

 

After the conversation, can I still fly an RA and accumulate the hrs into GA, I'm not sure

This is a good way to get confused during the two different types of training, and finish up doing more hours which offsets the cheaper AC rates. Buying your own aircraft doesn't save you money, you get all the joys of  tearing up hundred dollar bills because you are paying every dollar for every problem. Just think of the times you've been told XXXX is away for a few weeks getting a new engine or a new nose wheel etc. Worthwhile thinking the whole thing through. Nothing wrong with a J160, but the dollars owning your own aircraft training for eventual GA is not as simple as some people say expecially if they've never done a Total Cost of Life spreadsheet.

[Bruce Tuncks]

If you are not going to do your own maintenance, then you may not be a suitable candidate to own an RAAus plane.

Personally, I reckon that you learn a lot from going to maintainers school and then doing your own plane, but I am biased.

Anyway, you are doing well so far in seeking advice here before rushing in.

 

[Jeffmel]

1 hour ago, turboplanner said:

This is a good way to get confused during the two different types of training, and finish up doing more hours which offsets the cheaper AC rates. Buying your own aircraft doesn't save you money, you get all the joys of  tearing up hundred dollar bills because you are paying every dollar for every problem. Just think of the times you've been told XXXX is away for a few weeks getting a new engine or a new nose wheel etc. Worthwhile thinking the whole thing through. Nothing wrong with a J160, but the dollars owning your own aircraft training for eventual GA is not as simple as some people say expecially if they've never done a Total Cost of Life spreadsheet.

That's why I'm so keen to know the reliability and maintenance cost for the J160.

 

Again I'm only looking to do max 200hrs out of it then sell it. If I rent a similar one from school that's 200*$120=24000. I'm positive I can sell it at similar price but I'll say selling at -$4000 of purchasing price. 

 

Which means, during my prospective 3 years ownership, if maintenance plus parking plus insurance, can be less than $20000, id be better off buying it, plus the convenience of much flexible timetable

[Bruce Tuncks]

I'd recommend you buy a Jabiru, but a lower hour one might have less of the problems RF guy has alluded to.

Again I announce my bias...  i currently own 2 Jabirus

[Flightrite]

Owning an A/C for training then flogging it is a trade off. When it’s yours you pay for ALL the issues along the way and trust me there will be plenty! 
The best advantage is you open the hangar door and it’s there just the way you last left it, BUT you pay a huge premium for that convenience.

Hiring means it’s a known cost, you use it, park it & forget about  it.

A 7 group of us bought a C150H a 100 years ago to learn, most of us where engineers so costs where very cheap, I was the only one that completed the goal, it got sold and all ended well, for me. It’s an option but a syndicate is usually fraught with hassles!

Today I would rent, just get the job done with less headaches!

 

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