Jabiru a Good Buy?

[kgwilson]

Take the Jabiru engine reliability critics with a grain of salt. Most don't own one but like to bag them. The flying schools around here usually get TBO of 2000 hours with a top end O/haul at 1000 hours. I have Gen 3 6 cyl in my own build. Beautifully smooth engine, excellent power to weight, very simple, sounds like real aero engine, easy & cheap to maintain, just follow the manufacturers instructions. Also the airframe is second to none in strength but best of all it is Australian designed and manufactured with performance as good as many imported plastic fantastics at more than twice the price.

[turboplanner]

1 hour ago, Jeffmel said:

That's why I'm so keen to know the reliability and maintenance cost for the J160.

 

Again I'm only looking to do max 200hrs out of it then sell it. If I rent a similar one from school that's 200*$120=24000. I'm positive I can sell it at similar price but I'll say selling at -$4000 of purchasing price. 

 

Which means, during my prospective 3 years ownership, if maintenance plus parking plus insurance, can be less than $20000, id be better off buying it, plus the convenience of much flexible timetable

My 10c

(a) $24,000 > $20,000 is just proposed purchase price. Total cost includes membership, fees, hangarage, maintenance, component failures, insurance costs and more.

(b) You didn't mention (or factor in?) waste hours where you start flying and learning to RA standards; then have to forget those and spend extra hours flying for the procedures required by GA but not required by RA, then Nav standards for GA, etc. It is much harder to unlearn processes you'll never need in an aviation career, and relearn them.

I've seen your questions asked by a lot of young pilots who finished up paying more and losing time to get to a satisfactory CPL standard. It's been some of the people they met on the way through PPL and CPL who've mentored them into work, which is not the easiest thing to come by at the beginning.

 

[Yenn]

As kgwilson says treat the so called engine experts as you would treat any purveyor if info. it is worth what you pay for it. There have been some problems with Jab engines, but it has been blown out of all proportion, A lot of us keep flying them with no worries. As far as the Jab airframe goes it can absorb a ton of abuse and still go well. It is also relatively easy to fix problems but best of all it is a very safe airframe and has a good record of keeping pilots alive. It also seems to have less problems with nosewheels collapsing, compared to some of the Rotax powered ultralights.

The ability to fly at any time and do your own maintenance is well worth having. Those who mention C150s don't memtion that all the maintenance has to be done by a LAME at vast expense, except for the miniscule number on the RAAus register.

[Jeffmel]

24 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

My 10c

(a) $24,000 > $20,000 is just proposed purchase price. Total cost includes membership, fees, hangarage, maintenance, component failures, insurance costs and more.

(b) You didn't mention (or factor in?) waste hours where you start flying and learning to RA standards; then have to forget those and spend extra hours flying for the procedures required by GA but not required by RA, then Nav standards for GA, etc. It is much harder to unlearn processes you'll never need in an aviation career, and relearn them.

I've seen your questions asked by a lot of young pilots who finished up paying more and losing time to get to a satisfactory CPL standard. It's been some of the people they met on the way through PPL and CPL who've mentored them into work, which is not the easiest thing to come by at the beginning.

 

That's something new, I've never been told RAAUS and GA standards are so different. 

 

I remember came across some ads saying their Jabiru was registered in GA and now registered with RA. that means there are should not be any major differences?

[facthunter]

The NUMBERS tell you the difference. 25 and  1 Other are for training. IF you are going for a CPL you want full CTA access not just the drome you train from.. Nev

[turboplanner]

10 minutes ago, Jeffmel said:

That's something new, I've never been told RAAUS and GA standards are so different. 

 

I remember came across some ads saying their Jabiru was registered in GA and now registered with RA. that means there are should not be any major differences?

You can use a knife to eat your dinner or cut someone’s throat. 
 

[APenNameAndThatA]

If total cost of ownership is $100 per hour and it takes you 200 hrs

 

100 x 200 = 20000  spent. Not to mention a lot of TIME. 

[RFguy]

Only some Jabirus can be VH registered, probably less than 1% are ? Mostly VH experimental - built from kit,

 

Jabiru engines need care from the operator- they do not tolerate abuse , but they are a cost effeective, willing powerplant.

 

Jabiru airframe as everyone says, is as safe as they come. airframe troubles are few . nose wheels  and main gear are bulletproof 

 

But, if you are only going to fly it for 200 hours, the rental hire plane is a no brainer !

 

RAA purchase price : $20k. hangarage :  2.5k , insurance 2k, maintenance  over those 200 hours- budget for 4k to 10k 

 

The benefits of hiring for you I think are that you get to fly a large number of different planes , this will add volumes to your development as a pilot. 

 

 

 

[Jeffmel]

2 hours ago, RFguy said:

The benefits of hiring for you I think are that you get to fly a large number of different planes , this will add volumes to your development as a pilot.

But in my case even if I fly the school's ones, there are only 3-4 to choose from, warrior and Piper, two types. 

 

If I buy the Jabiru, do most training up to PPL level, then sell it. Maybe fly 100 hrs or less. Might take a year as I can only fly 2-3 hrs a week. Is this a better plan? Leave most maintenance to the next buyer

[onetrack]

Jeffmel - It's very easy to buy aircraft/cars/machinery - but not so easy to sell them. Every buyer of your rig for sale, has a vastly different idea of its sale value as compared to what you're asking for it.

You'll get dozens of "buyers", a large number of whom only want to pay about 2/3rds what you're asking, another sizeable percentage who are only "tyre kickers" and who are only dreaming, or they only want to try out their negotiation skills on you. The rest will just waste your time and annoy you.

 

When you sell an aircraft/car/machine, you have to "market it". You need to advertise it on every single publication, website or place you think a suitable buyer might spot it. Many a sale doesn't happen, simply because the buyer never saw the item for sale.

 

Once you've got your likely buyer in front of you, you have to go into overdrive, outlining the items features, benefits and value - some of which, the potential buyer may not have been aware of.

Then you both have to agree on a price - and you have to be confident the buyer is going to come good with the $$$'s.

Take a deposit - in cash - to secure the deal. No deposit - the buyer can walk away, after changing his mind.

 

As a general rule, if you can buy a highly depreciable item, use it for quite a while, and then sell without losing less than 20% of what you paid for it, you've done exceptionally well.

[RFguy]

Jeff, I think most people would agree with me that you wont save any money at all buying for 100-200 hours over hiring....  I know you thought of "Leave most maintenance to the next buyer" but that's highly unlikely you'll be able to odo that. 

I hired our club Brumby for about 80 hours.

 

Dont discount the benefit of hiring so that you can fly multiple aircraft. They are all different.... I know you are at an exciting stage, but  Given that you have not got RPC done yet, I think you should wait until you've got NAVs done before firming up. Your perspective will change . By all means, do the NAVs in the school plane- depending on your instructor, you'll already have enough to do in the plane with NAV activity, let alone an unfamiliar aircraft. 

[Jeffmel]

3 hours ago, RFguy said:

Jeff, I think most people would agree with me that you wont save any money at all buying for 100-200 hours over hiring....  I know you thought of "Leave most maintenance to the next buyer" but that's highly unlikely you'll be able to odo that. 

I hired our club Brumby for about 80 hours.

 

Dont discount the benefit of hiring so that you can fly multiple aircraft. They are all different.... I know you are at an exciting stage, but  Given that you have not got RPC done yet, I think you should wait until you've got NAVs done before firming up. Your perspective will change . By all means, do the NAVs in the school plane- depending on your instructor, you'll already have enough to do in the plane with NAV activity, let alone an unfamiliar aircraft. 

Thanks. I'll finish the RPC test then consider buying. 

 

I really like the Jibarus, it's a shame they are getting rid of it. 

[facthunter]

They will be around for a while yet. Nev

[RFguy]

The other thing, if you are not down to the last dollar and cent,  by all means buy the school Jabiru. But dont buy it to save money- you wont ! 🙂

What you CAN do in this time between now and NAVs done is do the research on the maintenance situation on the Jabiru, specifically the long term  replacement parts schedules, understand the maintenance regime.

 

That job will provide you an excellent introduction and background to many of the aspects of aircraft maintenance and ownership  - and you cant get that any other way other than doing the job yourself . 

 

 

[Jeffmel]

30 minutes ago, RFguy said:

That job will provide you an excellent introduction and background to many of the aspects of aircraft maintenance and ownership  - and you cant get that any other way other than doing the job yourself . 

I know how to service my car but I still take it to mechanics coz it helps when I sell my car

 

Does this applied to aircrafts? Buyer willing to pay premium prices if the aircraft has full servie history from certified mechenic? Ive checked the Jab in my school has always been serviced / mantained according to manufactors plan by L2 mechenic. 

[RFguy]

yes and no. Others will need to venture opinions here I hope

..... like all things quality of maintenance / mechanics varies. For me its about the quality of the paperwork and the degree of detail in the logbooks,  as much as the physical condition.

The school plane would/should have been by the book, every service bulletin work order written up and ticked off.... An school plane is almost certainly going to have the maintenance closer to 'the book' than a privately maintained aircraft , but again, that doesn't mean it was done well. That is a high hour aircraft, so ya wanna see that high hour things were done. For that, there are plenty of service bulletins for you to familiarize yourself with ... when I bought my J230, I spent a day collating them, and best part of 3/4 of a day on site  verifying that what should have been done had been done, and that the log books and maintenance books  all made sense.  it's a big job. but you learn about the aircraft doing that. 

 

The others are dead right, there is no substitute for opening up the hangar doors and go flying in your own plane unencumbered !

But the flip side is, like right now, I have not had time to do some things to my aircraft that need doing, so instead of flying, I am working on the plane when I can..... and paying insurance, hangarage , and becoming less current sitting on my butt.

 

If I was still flying the club plane, it is there ready to go..... 

 

 

[onetrack]

The greatest impediment to selling an aircraft is advising it was a former flight school aircraft. Many buyers would be put off by that fact alone.

Add to that, a high total hour level for a recreational aircraft, and you'll really be pushing to get a decent price for it.

 

Edited December 17, 2021 by onetrack

[facthunter]

The hours are a factor more with some planes than others. Not all school aircraft are on constant circuits and they usually have a fairly good runway surface at their home base. A plane is better being  used than sitting. Nev

[skippydiesel]

1 hour ago, RFguy said:

yes and no. Others will need to venture opinions here I hope

.... An school plane is almost certainly going to have the maintenance closer to 'the book' than a privately maintained aircraft , ...............................................................................

..........................................................................................

 

I agree with all you have said  with the exception of this unfounded comment.

 

I have just spent two years looking at/investigating aircraft for sale.

In that time I have seen some real F---Ups by professional service providers and some lesser ones from L1's (owner maintained).

For the most part L1's (owners) are so obsessed with their aircraft and most are willing to spend & spend again, coupled with oodles of time to do the job, so all is meticulous /a little over the top "by the book ++".

On the other hand professionally maintained aircraft often have just in time minimal cost repairs, can be a bit tatty round the edges and give the impression of blase attitude.

 

I am particularly unimpressed by those LAIM's who dont seem to understand Rotax 9 range engines and obviously dont care to learn.

 

[kgwilson]

I have seen some pretty shoddy work done on GA aircraft by LAMEs. This should never be the case as 1. They charge & arm & a leg for the work they do and 2. The regulations say that their work must be to a particularly stringent standard. Sadly I've seen poor substitute parts used, sub standard workmanship & just plain stuff ups. Most do not report this, they just don't go back. I'm sure this happens with L2 maintained RA aircraft but I don't have any personal knowledge of it.

 

I do everything on my aircraft as I built it and I fly it and I am fussy and I am a retired Engineer.

[facthunter]

One of the main benefits of AUF and RAAus was doing your own maintenance. It has potential to get a high standard result. You are highly motivated (Your PLANE & Your LIFE.) You educate yourself and have less pressure of time than a pro. . The Yanks do a much better job of educating people with Sport planes than we do by a mile. Build numbers are down and who designs their own plane these days? . I've has many inflight failures and all bar perhaps 2   were in GA and above and I was NOT a causal factor.. The CAVALIER attitude of SOME maintenance people was disappointing to say the least . Not the majority but enough. To many, It's just a job and as long as you  or your employer PAY and you get over the horizon,  that's good enough.  By contrast there are some absolute gems  who live and breath aeroplanes and will work all night to solve a problem   not just Checked OK on Ground run .. "Graphite spanner" is what the sign off of the AMD 18 was called. Nev

Edited December 17, 2021 by facthunter

[Flightrite]

I own several A/C despite some believing I’m not even a pilot (love that😂) 
and it costs me plenty, but hey dead a long time and somebody’s gotta keep the industry afloat😂😂😂

 

,

[APenNameAndThatA]

9 hours ago, RFguy said:

yes and no. Others will need to venture opinions here I hope

..... like all things quality of maintenance / mechanics varies. For me its about the quality of the paperwork and the degree of detail in the logbooks,  as much as the physical condition.

The school plane would/should have been by the book, every service bulletin work order written up and ticked off.... An school plane is almost certainly going to have the maintenance closer to 'the book' than a privately maintained aircraft , but again, that doesn't mean it was done well. That is a high hour aircraft, so ya wanna see that high hour things were done. For that, there are plenty of service bulletins for you to familiarize yourself with ... when I bought my J230, I spent a day collating them, and best part of 3/4 of a day on site  verifying that what should have been done had been done, and that the log books and maintenance books  all made sense.  it's a big job. but you learn about the aircraft doing that. 

 

The others are dead right, there is no substitute for opening up the hangar doors and go flying in your own plane unencumbered !

But the flip side is, like right now, I have not had time to do some things to my aircraft that need doing, so instead of flying, I am working on the plane when I can..... and paying insurance, hangarage , and becoming less current sitting on my butt.

 

If I was still flying the club plane, it is there ready to go..... 

 

 

Question: if you buy will you even be able to get hanger space? 

[Jeffmel]

1 hour ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

Question: if you buy will you even be able to get hanger space? 

I'll get an outdoor parking for $100 per mth

[APenNameAndThatA]

8 hours ago, Jeffmel said:

I'll get an outdoor parking for $100 per mth

Even parking outdoors can cause probs