Stalls and Spins

[facthunter]

Anytime you are airborne and have the stick well back you should think about the possibility of the plane stalling. Planes don't stall themselves unless they are loaded wrong. The normal reaction to the nose dropping must be resisted, similar to not raising a wing when it drops when stalled. If you are slow and low there's only POWER left.      Nev

[Roundsounds]

4 minutes ago, facthunter said:

Anytime you are airborne and have the stick well back you should think about the possibility of the plane stalling. Planes don't stall themselves unless they are loaded wrong. The normal reaction to the nose dropping must be resisted, similar to not raising a wing when it drops when stalled. If you are slow and low there's only POWER left.      Nev

Great advice, the other consideration / red flag being anytime you have aileron input and no corresponding roll. This is absolutely the case in the typical base / final turn spin. Many pilots are unaware of the fact they are holding off bank in these turns as the result of incorrect pro turn rudder input, resulting in a skidding turn.

[facthunter]

It's hard to recall/describe what one does unconsciously. . Subtle rudder to help the aileron effect.  (anticipate adverse aileron).

   Limiting of the ALLOWED bank angle to 30 degrees may be causing skidding turn  technique to  creep in. You shouldn't be scared of doing a brief BALANCED steep turn IF it is needed.  Level figure 8's to 40 degrees using power changes correctly will sort out how well  (co-ordinated) you are flying. Nev

[Roundsounds]

9 hours ago, facthunter said:

It's hard to recall/describe what one does unconsciously. . Subtle rudder to help the aileron effect.  (anticipate adverse aileron).

   Limiting of the ALLOWED bank angle to 30 degrees may be causing skidding turn  technique to  creep in. You shouldn't be scared of doing a brief BALANCED steep turn IF it is needed.  Level figure 8's to 40 degrees using power changes correctly will sort out how well  (co-ordinated) you are flying. Nev

I would estimate at least 70% of pilots I completed tailwheel endorsements with would have completed skidding turns at some point. Most frequently on a marginal glide approach, trying to stretch the glide, minimise bank angle and away they’d go. The offenders were of all levels of experience. Whenever I had the chance we would go to altitude and see how close to a stall / spin they’d been. I hope this may have saved a life or two. 
unfortunately most current training aircraft do not permit this demonstration. The Citabria would have to be one of the best training aeroplanes produced. 

Edited December 20, 2021 by Roundsounds

[APenNameAndThatA]

3 minutes ago, Roundsounds said:

I would estimate at least 70% of pilots I completed tailwheel endorsements with would have completed skidding turns at some point. Most frequently on a marginal glide approach, trying to stretch the glide, minimise bank angle and away they’d go. The offenders were of all levels of experience. Whenever I had the chance we would go to altitude and see how close to a stall / spin they’d been. I hope this may have saved a life or two. 
unfortunately most current training aircraft do not permit this demonstration. The Citabria would have to be one of the best training aeroplanes produced. 

How come you can’t do a stall in a skidding turn to see what happens? I have been told that a C172 can suddenly invert (ie spin) if you stall with crossed controls. 

 

Stalling one’s own aircraft in a skidding turn sounds like an excellent idea. But is that a bad thing to do in an aircraft not licensed for spins? 

 

That’s one reason I feel better stalling aircraft that are licensed to spin. I know this is a minority view, but Im a bit annoyed that if stalls and spins are so different, then how come NOBODY can tell me when/where one ends and the other starts? People don’t even seem to understand the question. And don’t get me started on incipient spins vs actual spins. 

 

I can’t wait to get back in the Decathlon and see what happens in a skidding stall, steep turn stall and after letting a wing drop drop and drop. I know that what happens in a Decathlon will not tell me what will happen in a Foxbat. The mystery annoys me and contributes to my anxiety. 

[Garfly]

42 minutes ago, Roundsounds said:

I would estimate at least 70% of pilots I completed tailwheel endorsements with would have completed skidding turns at some point. Most frequently on a marginal glide approach, trying to stretch the glide, minimise bank angle and away they’d go. The offenders were of all levels of experience. Whenever I had the chance we would go to altitude and see how close to a stall / spin they’d been. I hope this may have saved a life or two. 
unfortunately most current training aircraft do not permit this demonstration. The Citabria would have to be one of the best training aeroplanes produced. 

 

Roundsounds (and Nev et al), do you think, then, that the ingrained fear of banking when low and slow (well founded, of course, for level turns) needs to be modified when the wing is partially unloaded, as in a (coordinated) descending turn?  Or to put it another way, does our basic training get in the way of our progressing to 'advanced manoeuvring'; or simply learning to turn?

 

 

 

 

Edited December 20, 2021 by Garfly

[Roundsounds]

2 hours ago, Garfly said:

 

Roundsounds (and Nev et al), do you think, then, that the ingrained fear of banking when low and slow (well founded, of course, for level turns) needs to be modified when the wing is partially unloaded, as in a (coordinated) descending turn?  Or to put it another way, does our basic training get in the way of our progressing to 'advanced manoeuvring'; or simply learning to turn?

 

 

 

 

A proper understanding of the aerodynamics associated with un-coordinated flight would be a good start. The fear you mentioned is related to the lack of understanding. 
The BS taught as to why an aeroplane rolls when yawed constantly amazes me. 

Edited December 20, 2021 by Roundsounds

[APenNameAndThatA]

2 hours ago, Garfly said:

 

Roundsounds (and Nev et al), do you think, then, that the ingrained fear of banking when low and slow (well founded, of course, for level turns) needs to be modified when the wing is partially unloaded, as in a (coordinated) descending turn?  Or to put it another way, does our basic training get in the way of our progressing to 'advanced manoeuvring'; or simply learning to turn?

 

 

 

 

Slips are safe when low and slow. I think people should unload the wing and bank away to their heart’s content. (Disclaimer: as above). 

[APenNameAndThatA]

38 minutes ago, Roundsounds said:

A proper understanding of the aerodynamics associated with un-coordinated flight would be a good start. The fear you mentioned is related to the lack of understanding. 
The BS taught as to why an aeroplane rolls when yawed constantly amazes me. 

What BS is that? (I love pet hates.)

[Roundsounds]

8 minutes ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

What BS is that? (I love pet hates.)

The resultant roll from yaw is due mainly to dihedral, not one wing travelling faster than the other.

I’m talking typical GA trainer, not airplanes with swept wings.  

Edited December 20, 2021 by Roundsounds

[Garfly]

8 minutes ago, Roundsounds said:

The resultant roll from yaw is due to dihedral, not one wing travelling faster than the other. 

 

Glad to hear you say that.  I've never found the notion of the outside wing going faster than the inside one very convincing.

(Except, perhaps, the model airplane tethered by a short line held by a 'pilot' getting dizzy from turning on the spot.) 

But then the 'Bernoulli' explanation persisted for a century because it sounded right.

 

[facthunter]

Sideslipping is something else entirely. it's a crook way for a plane to fly and that's why the approach angle steepens. You have increased the drag.. I doubt one in ten pilot's do it neatly and correctly. If they ever did most have forgotten How.  I doubt they were ever taught properly. If the speed is high you are putting loads on things. With only a little bank, it's just dreadful skidding flight. It feels uncomfortable to passengers no matter how it's done. Sideslipping can be considered separately. To introduce it in the concept of balanced turns  complicates things even though slipping turns are very do able and can be a neat technique for an accomplished, careful and in practice  operator  Flying something like a Citabria which is unflapped it's done on most short field approaches and you'd PLAN for it on a forced landing to ensure you don't land short..Nev.

[Yenn]

Side slipping comes into its own in a plane without flaps. How do you control your descent rate with power off? If yo want to be ready for an engine failure with an un flapped plane you will be well advised to use a sideslip. It also has the benefit that if you just let go all control inputs, your speed will increase and your drag decrease allowing you to flatten the descent.

[houvanvlieg]

Likely wrong but here it goes.

The wing stalls when the critical AOA is exceeded.  35 kts or 235 kts. Indicated airspeed has nothing to do with it. Getting slow in the pattern likely means one is pulling feet to nose, thus loading the wings and closer to the stall "speed", rather stall AOA.

Seems some refer to stall/spin as if it is synonyms. It is not. You cannot spin if the ball is in the middle aka coordinated flight. A spin can only develop if you have both: stalled wing(s)    AND yaw. The latter stalls one wing more than the other and sure she'll spin.

The "falling leaf" is a fun maneuver to get rid of this "fear of stalls".  In the pattern I rather stall into the ground at 42 kts, VSI 500 fpm down, then spin in at VSI 1500 fpm. 

Base to final spin. Because we are taught not to bank more than 30 degrees and now we help the nose around to the centre line instead of banking 45 or 60 degrees AND unloading the wing AND keeping the ball in the middle.

Too much to ask. I knew I was wrong.

 

[djpacro]

Easy enough to demonstrate roll due to rate of yaw - fly an airplane with nil dihedral (ideally a mid-wing, which I owned for many years) through a hammerhead/stall turn. See the different behaviour depending on whether you fly a good vertical (wings developing zero lift) vs wings developing a bit of lift.