Circuit calls

[Mike Gearon]

46 minutes ago, facthunter said:

There can be quite a few "finals" at aerodromes especially for first time visitors. Even when "Final for 18 " is lined up to land on another runway. You may get the odd reciprocal landing down wind. A Glance at the Compass would sort that out. Nev

Exactly as you mention… a quick glance at the compass… always. I’ve learned this through experience unfortunately. 

 

[kgwilson]

3 hours ago, facthunter said:

There can be quite a few "finals" at aerodromes especially for first time visitors. Even when "Final for 18 " is lined up to land on another runway. You may get the odd reciprocal landing down wind. A Glance at the Compass would sort that out. Nev

When I was training in CTR I called at the reporting point & was requested to report overhead a landmark before joining the circuit. I did & was advised to join down wind for 18. I read it back & proceeded to join for 36. ATC repeated the instruction & I read it back again while continuing to turn for for 36. Then came the short sharp "ABC TURN LEFT NOW!!!" . That got my attention & all was well. Later on in the bar I mentioned my mistake to a number of much more experienced pilots & felt quite relieved when several said "Oh yeah I've done that" & laughed. That was the point when I realised experienced pilots are human after all.

Edited December 21, 2021 by kgwilson

[RossK]

I made a perfect inbound call the other day, 10nm, location, altitude, eta, etc, all the info and nothing extra.

Short reply was;

"Sportstar 1720, Melbourne Centre, you are on Area frequency not CTAF"

🙄 😧

I had been on area and monitoring CTAF (so had heard all the CTAF calls) and forgot to switch

Edited December 21, 2021 by RossK

[turboplanner]

5 minutes ago, RossK said:

I made a perfect inbound call the other day, 10nm, location, altitude, eta, etc, all the info and nothing extra.

Short reply was;

"Sportstar 1720, Melbourne Centre, you are on Area frequency not CTAF"

🙄 😧

I had been on area and monitoring CTAF (so had heard all the CTAF calls) and forgot to switch

Wouldn't mind betting I've done that myself. One way around it is to have a spirax book with details broken up for each segment. It helps when you're coming in to a CTAF tired after diversions, weather etc. and can't even remember your name. The short list with frequency etc removes that.

[facthunter]

It helps if you have a heading BUG on a compass (Dash mounted), wind it in before reading back. It becomes automatic.  These things can be serious.. Nev

[facthunter]

It doesn't even have to be on a compass You need some reference. . In CTA you will get headings  and you start the turn immediately for it to be most effective. Nev

[F10]

I find a lot of talk about correct format, like “finals” rather than “final”. Yes, standardisation is important, but I think for a lot of people, are resistant to radio calls or are basically intimidated, by getting called out on format. I would far rather someone talk to me, in plain language as such, than say nothing. People should be encouraged to use the radio, with format a secondary issue. Recent UTube clips I’ve watched show quite a lot of casual chatter with ATCs happening in the USA. Format is important, but talking and advising your intentions is more important. Some joker picked me out on a CTAF frequency, because I called inbound at height and gave an estimate for overhead, instead of using the term “overflying”. Lecturing someone over the air, is piss poor behaviour. However, nothing wrong with asking clarification if someone is not clear about intentions. Did it really matter if I was overflying or joining the circuit overhead? I would still be out the way of cct traffic? This kind of thing scares inexperienced people off. Basing all radio calls on the structure of:

Who you are

Where you are (position and height)

What are your intentions

Works for me.

Edited January 6, 2022 by F10

[Garfly]

A follow-up to Stefan's earlier video regarding circuit calls  (posted on page 1 of this thread).

 

 

[turboplanner]

9 hours ago, F10 said:

Who you are

Where you are (position and height)

What are your intentions

Works for me.

We are flying in Australian Services Airspace where some of our prcedures were carved out in blood.

Inventing your own procedures is going to produce an unexpected cadence.

Why does that matter? 

In a busy circuit there is always going to be someone whose radio is transmitting weakly to the point where the words can't be distinuished.

But the cadence can, so even if you can't hear what the person is saying, you hear the syllables, so base (-), final (- -) etc are distinguishable and the big whirlpool of the circuit goes round with everyone knowing where the others are.

This particularly applies in RA where tiny white fuselages blend in to the sky, and many radios don't transmit correctly.

I realise none of this makes much sense to someone who flies in the country on an airfield that never sees more than three aircraft in the circuit, but we are having increasing discussions about RA pilots being allowed to fly into airfields  with 10 to 15 aircraft in the circuit, and two things happen 1. You can't identify fast enough in a 1 or 2 second transmission what someone has just said, and 2. No one else in the circuit can pick up your intentions. So you become a circulating grenade.

 

[jackc]

AND, many pilots think they are F-35 Top Gun drivers so they talk as fast as they think they can fly 🙂  Do that and they get a ‘say again’ from me.  Communications are useless if they can’t  be understood, I am not into taking guesses……

Edited January 6, 2022 by jackc
word change

[facthunter]

Slow, Clear standard phraseology and minimum time and words and don't key and then start thinking what you'll say.  Include ONLY the relevant   things to your circumstances and requirements. Radio work in these circumstances is not a conversation. It's an established process of recommendations and requirements. ie Read back of clearances, essential) that has probably deteriorated far more than it should have. over time. Self discipline is an essential part of safe flying. It's not THAT hard to get it right but neither is criticism over the radio a proper part of it or ANYTHING of a personal nature. IF you want to get cranky, do it after you land... Nev

[kgwilson]

When I was training in controlled airspace the correct phraseology was important but a new student is very busy in the cockpit and the brain sometimes can't process everything while trying to remember what to say. The instruction from both the Instructor and ATC was and as far as I know still is, "If you can't remember the correct phraseology just speak English". It is better to say something rather than nothing. 

 

With a lot of foreign students that is easier said than done. I have asked "Say again" on many occasions and sometimes several times. On a couple of occasions after the second "Say again s l o w l y" the Instructor has chipped in and all was OK. The reduction of foreign students due to Covid restrictions has reduced this issue somewhat but it will probably ramp up again within 12 months

[skippydiesel]

45 minutes ago, kgwilson said:

When I was training in controlled airspace the correct phraseology was important but a new student is very busy in the cockpit and the brain sometimes can't process everything while trying to remember what to say. The instruction from both the Instructor and ATC was and as far as I know still is, "If you can't remember the correct phraseology just speak English". It is better to say something rather than nothing. 

 

With a lot of foreign students that is easier said than done. I have asked "Say again" on many occasions and sometimes several times. On a couple of occasions after the second "Say again s l o w l y" the Instructor has chipped in and all was OK. The reduction of foreign students due to Covid restrictions has reduced this issue somewhat but it will probably ramp up again within 12 months

Agree!

 

Foreign/heavily accented english of any origin (even the UK) must be discouraged when communicating to/from an aircraft. Aviation english is the international standard that we should all aspire to (including Stralans).

[kasper]

9 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

Agree!

 

Foreign/heavily accented english of any origin (even the UK) must be discouraged when communicating to/from an aircraft. Aviation english is the international standard that we should all aspire to (including Stralans).

Yep, Stralan English was always fun with my calls in the UK ... particularly as my plane was G-CCZR ... that "Charrrrleeee Charrrleee" (as the English heard it) was always getting me a smile.

 

But the most fun was the French lady who came over the radio after by inbound call to Abbeville with a correction ... "French Language only please" ... she probably regretted that because my French position calls after that were in even more mangled French than my English ones 😀

[facthunter]

The Englsh language is only supposed to be available at International aerodromes in France. English is the International language of aviation. (luckily for us). Non the less it requires a broad interpretation and some patience sometimes, even when at those. 3 times A request a confirmation of a " Blast Clearance for a cross bleed engine start" and I kept getting " TangoXX you are Clear to Tahxi ".   Nev

[skippydiesel]

Viv la Froggy - they have always had a chip on their cultural shoulder, when comes to the Poms

[spacesailor]

Only because THEY

LOST

That battle at " AZINCOURT " northern France. 

Neve forgave those blooody poms. They,r not even alowed to say the English word  " LORRY ".

spacesailor

 

Edited January 7, 2022 by spacesailor
Correction applied

[facthunter]

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect visitors to not require them to speak a foreign  language in "their own" Country. Nev

[spacesailor]

" to not require "

Did l miss something in the wording ?.

spacesailor

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

We used to have quite a few foreign students, some of them wore coke-bottle glasses and spoke poor English. I reckoned that they were the sons of Indonesian generals and they were going to become airline pilots. Hopefully back in Indonesia.

Back to radio transmissions... I rarely hear the place of origin mentioned even on unicom 126.7, where it could be lots of places. You can only tell they are a long way away because of the poor signal strength but it would be good to know for sure that they were at  Naracoorte for example. Yes, at the beginning and end of each transmission is correct.

And, Turbs, I don't think there is a strip at Natimuk. Be good if there was . ( I know you didn't say there was a strip there, but you got my hopes up. )

Yes, standard  phrases can sometimes be helpful but plain English is better I reckon.  

[Bruce Tuncks]

Apparently it really happened that a Stralian Quantas captain said "welcome everybody here today"

A group of Pakistanis got really upset at this and they sent a spokesman up to tell the captain..

" we did not come here to die, we came here to fly to London"

[turboplanner]

1 hour ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

Yes, standard  phrases can sometimes be helpful but plain English is better I reckon.  

You did get a Recreational Pilot Certificate?

[Mike Gearon]

One of my local airports had a stuck mike or intercom thing going on recently. I could hear both sides for a full 5 minutes. It was almost all a foreign language with English from instructor for radio calls followed by the student repeating. I chose to make my radio calls as if they could be heard and took off. I guess I could have changed to 126.7 ? Next time….

 

I was proceeding across the bay then decided with low cloud to follow the coast to narrowest crossing point with glide in mind. I then heard foreign language with “right turn” interspersed. I expect the lesson was the other pilot wasn’t far enough from the airport to change direction. That is also an interesting one. If I’d maintained circuit (already well outside the actual circuit) then turned left back over the airport cloud cover was a little too low. I’d also have been doing so with other aircraft almost certainly not in communication…If I’d just proceeded across bay I wasn’t happy with height. I guess this is all why you never stop learning. I add a little something each flight.

Edited January 8, 2022 by Mike Gearon