ADSB for all?

[Garfly]

 

Now we're talking ...

 

From: "Recreational Aviation Australia Ltd." <[email protected]> Subject: E-News Flash | Government announces Aviation Recovery Framework, including ADS-B funding Date: 20 December 2021 at 7:00:49 am AEDT

Excerpt: "One of the key support measures being introduced in the Framework is funding of $30 million in rebates to recreational and general aviation operators for up to $5,000 or 50 percent of the cost of installing ADS-B technology."

Hopefully this will make ASA's fever dream of the Class E sky falling in a thing of the past.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 19, 2021 by Garfly

[jackc]

A good start would be for ALL aircraft and ALL ATCs be able to ‘see’  ECDs, Skyecho etc…….

[Garfly]

That 5K figure suggests they're now going to encourage proper Mode S transponders. 

So maybe by-passing the Conspicuity Device idea?

Edited December 19, 2021 by Garfly

[jackc]

Then comes a mandate with start date for ALL aircraft to have Mode S fitted??

[Garfly]

12 minutes ago, jackc said:

Then comes a mandate with start date for ALL aircraft to have Mode S fitted??

Maybe not, according to this paragraph from the (above) RAA email:

 

"RAAus will support our members as the scheme is rolled out, particularly those who choose not to take up this generous rebate, to minimise any operational effect. We will also continue to advocate that any airspace design changes resulting from this scheme are justified on safety grounds. The funding also increases the value for those who have already invested in ADS-B technology by making the technology available to more people and improving situational awareness for all users." 

 

But SkyEcho2s should still work and still have the advantage of being portable and reconfigurable between aircraft.  And, hopefully, increasingly visible to most other aircraft and ATC within range.

 

 

 

Edited December 19, 2021 by Garfly

[jackc]

Me being the doomsday merchant sees a flurry of implementation rules.  To fit Mode S to a Piper Cub or similar that has no electrical system as such, will require an approved charging system to be fitted etc etc?? RAAus can do it’s best to ‘advocate’ what we should have, but getting that has no guarantee.  Just look at the airspace debacle……

[waraton]

Wait for some details which seem lacking at the moment. Government announcements with an election looming.

[jackc]

I will hurry up and WAIT…….. 🙂

[walrus]

I must admit having ADSB - In is highly addictive.  In addition to helping yourself with see and avoid, it also allows you to assist others with theirs. However for full blown ADSB that ATC can rely on,  I need to add a higher performance GPS that meets TSO performance requirements. That is not cheap.

[Garfly]

 

 

 

We should be so lucky that "Automatic Dependent Surveillance Broadcast for all"  should become an election slogan.  😉

 

But as the RAAus email suggests, much of the impetus seems to have come from Qantas (of all places):  

 

https://www.infrastructure.gov.au/sites/default/files/migrated/aviation/future/files/future_aviation_31_Qantas_2020.pdf

 

The relevant section is  APPENDIX 2 PART B THE FUTURE OF AVIATION – GOVERNMENT’S FIVE-YEAR PLAN GENERAL AVIATION

 

Edited December 19, 2021 by Garfly

[facthunter]

The Impetus should come from people like Qantas especially with regional operations.  It can't be universal due some electrical systems deficiency and I'm concerned about dense traffic situations at events where you will still need control. Nev

[Garfly]

Yes, I think that regional operators have a big interest in trying to get some order within the wild west of VFR land that they need to negotiate as they approach their uncontrolled terminal areas.  With the help of relatively affordable devices like the SkyEcho2 which don't need an onboard electrical system (10 hours of operation on one charge) and which interface with the general ADSB system, universality is achievable. None of that  precludes, or makes redundant, air traffic control.  It's just a much better see and avoid set up. 

[Kyle Communications]

You can get a ADSB in and out with the GPS included for 5k...full power out etc

 

[jackc]

I am hoping that ECDs are well catered for as they represent a reasonable cost solution and are the best solution for minimalist aircraft.  Portability between aircraft for those who own more than one aircraft is important, too.

 

[facthunter]

Like all things you can install how to get the most from it would have to  be learned/taught. Nev

[Bruce Tuncks]

Sorry to be negative, but the fitting of such a thing will enable them to police us closer.

The only people who have ever got into airspace trouble around here did so because they had left their bloody transponders on. In one case, that airspace had not been used since airlines stopped flying piston engines.

Without the transponders, they would not have ever known enough about the "violation" to make trouble.

[Kyle Communications]

So why do you fly outside the limits...dont do what your not supposed to do and its not a issue...remember its always better to ask for forgiveness than permission

 

I would much rather know where every aircraft is when i am flying....

 

 

 

you may not fly in a busy area...a lot of us do though

 

 

[turboplanner]

33 minutes ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

Sorry to be negative, but the fitting of such a thing will enable them to police us closer.

The only people who have ever got into airspace trouble around here did so because they had left their bloody transponders on. In one case, that airspace had not been used since airlines stopped flying piston engines.

Without the transponders, they would not have ever known enough about the "violation" to make trouble.

Not correct, ATC have radar data on every aircraft flying anywhere in Australia if they want to use it.

One night, during training a group of us flew into Tullamarine in four aircraft when it was quiet and were taken up to see the ATC guys in action in a room in the control tower.

They were all seated together in modules, each with a radar screen covering their area, and as new aircraft entered and called in the tile would go in the rack, as it moved into someone else's area it would go in their rack and whn it got home the tile would come out of the system, and it was good training  because we could see what was required of us when we made our calls, and how it was to our benefit. Suddenly there was some chuckling in the room; an aircraft was flying NVFR to Melbourne and had called "Overhead Eildon" Our operator showed him on the radar 80 Nm west of Eildon trying to fudge it and work his way towards Melbourne.

 

 

[Garfly]

When you listen on Area, you often hear controllers warn aircraft away from PRD / CTA airspaces.  I don't think the ATC system is punishment minded, first and foremost.  (Although when CASA bureaucrats sense blood in the water and get their teeth into someone's back side they won't let go.)

 

But it's the aircraft-to-aircraft aspects  (see-and-avoid which actually works in Class G) where ADSB IN-OUT comes into its own for us, I'd say.

 

Not only will it reduce actual mid-airs, it will also help reduce pilot collision anxiety, freeing up brain power for other tasks, like, say, maintaining control.  Anyone who observes - while listening in to -  a busy circuit from the ground knows that most of the nervy players up there are anxious unnecessarily - until they aren't, of course.  A quick glance at a screen - no, we're not talking about fixating on iPads - can be way more effective than minutes scanning an empty sky (especially, say, if that other craft's main gear is just about to kiss your vertical fin).

 

At present, ADSB displays, as in OzRunways fed by an 'IN' device such as an SE2, still don't display the older Mode C transponders so I hope this new government money also helps established operators move to Mode S.

 

 

Edited December 20, 2021 by Garfly

[Bruce Tuncks]

They could use the radar information to make sure that aircraft don't have mid-airs OR they could use it to increase their control.

I am sure the latter takes over because of the way in which they police vacant airspace.

 

 

[turboplanner]

24 minutes ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

They could use the radar information to make sure that aircraft don't have mid-airs OR they could use it to increase their control.

I am sure the latter takes over because of the way in which they police vacant airspace.

 

 

It’s one of the busiest airspace’s in Australia and one that is reserved for ATC to call an aircraft into at any time of any day, without having to say, just let me phone Bruce and make sure he’s not in there.

[Garfly]

30 minutes ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

They could use the radar information to make sure that aircraft don't have mid-airs OR they could use it to increase their control.

I am sure the latter takes over because of the way in which they police vacant airspace.

 

 

 

They are always out to get us, but not nearly as keenly as the general public will be the first time a wayward ultralight brings down a packed regional RPT in shared airspace.  I think the time has come for us to embrace universal conspicuity and TCAS tech (including for drones and other UAVs).

 

 

[Yenn]

Just think back to when ADSB was first introduced to us. It was going to make life easier for airservices because they could drop the VORs and other radio aids that consumed a lot of maintenance money. The government was going to use that saved money to help pay for the fitting of ADSB to aircraft.

That would be a win win situation, nobody much out of pocket, but then government thought they would have both the wins and let the owners of aircraft foot the bill. Now as a taxpayer I think that was the correct thing to do and as an owner, it was just a hypocritical stuff up.

Do you really think the government is going to subsidize the fitting of ADSB? Do you believe in Santa Claws.

[Garfly]

Yes, Virginia.

[kgwilson]

I put in submissions for government subsidising of low cost identification systems specifically the Skyecho 2 already approved by CASA. RA-Aus also supported this in their submissions. 50% Government subsidies have already been implemented in the US & UK. This will bring the Skyecho 2 down to $450.00 in which case I will get one.

 

If you have a factory built aircraft then you will have to get an approved installer for a wired in unit. As an amateur builder I can put whatever I like on my panel and with a stand alone Skecho2 no installation would be required in either case.

 

This whole idea was also promoted by ASA when they wanted to lower Class E but that under Australian regulations meant the addition of a transponder. The whole issue of lowering class E went underground after they got responses to their second attempt. Guess what, today I received an Email from Airservices which includes the following paragraph.

 

"As a direct result of industry consultation, we continue to refine the proposal to enhance safety outcomes while balancing airspace access and equity for all airspace users. We have been focusing on clarifying the case for change in leveraging surveillance technology to reduce reliance on visual sighting of aircraft and pilot self-separation, particularly in airspace of increased risk profile."

 

While it is standard Public service speak it looks like they are supportive now of ADSB & not promoting transponders. It is no accident that this email came on the same day that the subsidy has been announced.