ADSB for all?

[Kyle Communications]

There is absolutely no difference between a normal Rotax engine and a certified one except a extra letter on the serial number...its not a different engine...it just comes with different paperwork....bureaucratic bullsh*t

[kgwilson]

I am optimistic that the subsidy will include SE2. The guvmint has copied the subsidy idea process from the UK & US and the 50% subsidies there do include SE2. In my opinion being able to see anything that is a possible conflict has a much better safety benefit than forcing the fitment of a transponder that they will not even be seen 90% of the time under 5000 feet and it does nothing for the pilots awareness of traffic in the area. It's only use is flight following at 10,000 feet or above in hilly terrain or keeping ASA busy in CTR. 

[Bruce Tuncks]

So do I need to get used to the idea of being always subject to scrutinising from the bureaucracy?

[Garfly]

4 minutes ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

So do I need to get used to the idea of being always subject to scrutinising from the bureaucracy?

 

Apparently not:

 

"RAAus will support our members as the scheme is rolled out, particularly those who choose not to take up this generous rebate, to minimise any operational effect. We will also continue to advocate that any airspace design changes resulting from this scheme are justified on safety grounds. The funding also increases the value for those who have already invested in ADS-B technology by making the technology available to more people and improving situational awareness for all users."

 

 

From: "Recreational Aviation Australia Ltd." <[email protected]>

Date: 20 December 2021 at 7:00:49 am AEDT

[Kenlsa]

I’ve just cut the new panel for the Colt, bugga. Looks like I will have to do it again.

 

Ken

[Garfly]

Not with an SE2 though.   : - )  

[Garfly]

This recent mid-air of a C208 and a powered parachute in Texas has relevance here. 

 

 

 

[Thruster88]

Yes the SkyEcho2 is perfect for powered parachutes, gliders, hot air balloons  and any simple flying machine. Turn it on and put it in your pocket. 

 

The cessna caravan almost certainly  would have had a traffic alerting system.

 

The cessna 208 is a 3 miles a minute aircraft,  so the pilot would have had less than 60 seconds to see the traffic. 

Edited December 26, 2021 by Thruster88

[Garfly]

 

 

Anybody seen any more details on how the new ADS-B rebate scheme is supposed to work?

Meanwhile, a new video about an old disaster serves as another reminder of why it's needed.

 

 

[Roundsounds]

How much technology and procedures do people need? If the money had been equipped with Mode C the TCAS might have alerted the crew of the Metro. If the Metro Crew had maintained a lookout they might have avoided the accident. If the Mooney pilot and instructor hadn’t wandered into CTA the accident eg wouldn’t have occurred. If the Air Traffic controller had fulfilled their obligations the accident might have been avoided. 
Sometime stuff happens.

[jackc]

It might also help IF ATCs could ‘see’ electronic conspicuity devices, too.

 

[Garfly]

35 minutes ago, Roundsounds said:

How much technology and procedures do people need? If the money had been equipped with Mode C the TCAS might have alerted the crew of the Metro. 

 

Yeah, some were asking that same question when TCAS was being promoted:

 

Juan Browne (Blancolirio on YT) puts it this way  "If you think the old FAA regulation of 'See and Avoid' in visual flight conditions is adequate to avoid mid-air collisions, you're sadly mistaken. And the accident record proves this."  He goes on to relate an anecdote of his own.  "Me and a handful of others fought hard to get TCAS equipment into the air-tanker industry. And the industry fought that tooth and nail as that's very much an 'eyes outside the cockpit' sort of flying program."

 

Source:

 

 

 

Edited January 31, 2022 by Garfly

[Roundsounds]

32 minutes ago, jackc said:

It might also help IF ATCs could ‘see’ electronic conspicuity devices, too.

 

Like a transponder?

[Roundsounds]

31 minutes ago, Garfly said:

 

Yeah, some were asking that same question when TCAS was being promoted:

 

Juan Browne (Blancolirio on YT) puts it this way  "If you think the old FAA regulation of 'See and Avoid' in visual flight conditions is adequate to avoid mid-air collisions, you're sadly mistaken. And the accident record proves this."  He goes on to relate an anecdote of his own.  "Me and a handful of others fought hard to get TCAS equipment into the air-tanker industry. And the industry fought that tooth and nail as that's very much an 'eyes outside the cockpit' sort of flying program."

 

Source:

 

 

 

This will simply create a lower level

of lookout. The Metro crew likely weren’t looking out as they were in CTA and assumed a lookout being not needed. What happens to the aircraft not fitted with ADSB out, they become invisible to the ADSB crowd. Pilots using tech for separation will spend time staring at their screens, EFIS flight instruments and written checklists at the expense of a proper lookout. 
im not against technology, but am against technology without proper training. The HF implications around this equipment is serious stuff and is simply ignored. 

Edited January 31, 2022 by Roundsounds

[jackc]

Well, the Skyecho2 broadcasts its position, other aircraft receive it although I don’t think airspeed and altitude is sent, correct me if I am wrong. I phoned our local ATC and they did not know what an ECD was 🙂. I mentioned Skyecho and still drew a blank!!

[Roundsounds]

2 minutes ago, jackc said:

Well, the Skyecho2 broadcasts its position, other aircraft receive it although I don’t think airspeed and altitude is sent, correct me if I am wrong. I phoned our local ATC and they did not know what an ECD was 🙂. I mentioned Skyecho and still drew a blank!!

ATC can only “see” certified ADSB equipment output. Sky echo etc are simply toys from the regulators perspective. 

[jackc]

Well, the ‘regulators’ better pull their head out of their……… and realise anything that can help with safety is a bonus.  CASA needs to get with the program 🙂

and include ECDs into part of the ATC alerting system.

[Garfly]

2 hours ago, Roundsounds said:

ATC can only “see” certified ADSB equipment output. Sky echo etc are simply toys from the regulators perspective. 

 

1 hour ago, jackc said:

Well, the ‘regulators’ better pull their head out of their……… and realise anything that can help with safety is a bonus.  CASA needs to get with the program 🙂

and include ECDs into part of the ATC alerting system.

 

What the 'regulators' actually say:

 

CASA advisory-circular-91-23

2.1.7    ..... Logically, ADS-B OUT is the ideal way for VFR aircraft to signal their presence directly to other aircraft. In effect, ADS-B turns the ‘see and avoid’ concept into ‘see, BE SEEN, and avoid.’

2.1.8 The technical standards for ADS-B OUT now include a range of equipment options primarily aimed at VFR aircraft. These include transponder-based systems and self-contained systems called Electronic Conspicuity (EC) devices and integrated Traffic Awareness Beacon System (TABS).

2.1.9 The standards also allow technically capable, but non-TSO4 ADS-B OUT equipment to be installed in a range of sport aviation, experimental and certain other aircraft.

2.1.10 In summary, we want to improve the ability of airspace users to see you.

 

https://www.casa.gov.au/sites/default/files/2021-08/advisory-circular-91-23-ads-b-enhancing-situational-awareness.pdf

 

 

29/09/2021         VFR and visible | Flight Safety Australia 

 

Can ATC ‘see’ my SkyEcho2?

The prime objective of SkyEcho2 is air-to-air traffic awareness – the device is not certified to the performance standards needed for ATC separation services. Nevertheless, CASA envisages the device being used for situational awareness by ATC.

By early this year, the Airservices Australia ATC system had not been modified to display SkyEcho2; however, it is expected that with a new ATC system on the way, SkyEcho2 transmissions will be displayed to controllers, for situational awareness only, using distinctive symbology which will prevent the application of surveillance separation standards to those aircraft. 

 

 

 

 

uAvionix website:

CLICK IMAGE FOR FULL REZ:

 

Edited January 31, 2022 by Garfly

[Garfly]

2 hours ago, jackc said:

Well, the Skyecho2 broadcasts its position, other aircraft receive it although I don’t think airspeed and altitude is sent, correct me if I am wrong. 

Jack, the SE2 transmits (pressure) altitude data from its built-in barometric altimeter.  Most ADSB-IN devices display the target level in hundreds of feet above or below (and if climbing or descending). Meanwhile, the GPS sends out ground-speed info.

[RFguy]

ATC can see my Skyecho.   They call me direct on centre by my aircraft registration if there is a potential conflict .

 

[Old Koreelah]

I ordered my SE2 last Friday. Hopefully it will be here in time for my first flight out of our valley in two years. This Saturday we are invited to Barraba for breakfast. Only 45 minutes but my route passes directly over Lake Keepit, where there might be a bit of traffic.

 

Then it’s Scone Warbirds on 26 March and Parkes the following weekend.

 

Edit: Coonabarabran is once again hosting their Wings and Things with Matt Hall, etc on 23 April.

 

Lots of traffic which I’d like to avoid.

[kgwilson]

I'd be happy if ATC could not see my ADSB out. It is more important for pilots to be aware of other traffic direct than for a 3rd party to get involved. SE2 with ADSB In/out is way ahead of ASA & many others that only have ADSB out. SE2 can detect ADSB out equipped traffic up to 50NM radius, pass that to your phone or tablet running almost any Navigation software even simple freeware. I am just waiting for the nod on getting the 50% rebate before ordering.

[RFguy]

With the SE2 into ATC > You have to be close to their receiver site- 10nm  I would suggest is reliable if good line of site. 

 

"SE2 can detect ADSB out equipped traffic up to 50NM radius, " - ahhhh I'd reckon 30nm  reliably from a full power 200W transponder, and 10nm from another skyecho.

 

[jackc]

If you are waiting for a Govt subsidy……..it will be LONG time unless it’s Covid19 related.  I just sucked it up and bought one.  Rarely be in range of ATC anyway, but if other aircraft ‘see’ me and likewise I see them, it’s better than nothing……

[kgwilson]

That may just be their promotional exaggeration but there were tests done somewhere where this came from. I read it some time ago but can't remember the details now. It certainly out performed the 25k TCAS systems in a lot of commercial aircraft.

 

The 50% subsidy was only announced in mid December last year so the money is there. In the scheme of things $30 million is bugger all but if there is a change of government & they find Scomo & the philanderer have spent everything including what they haven't got then it could be a different story.

Edited January 31, 2022 by kgwilson