ADSB for all?

[kgwilson]

3 hours ago, turboplanner said:

Not correct, ATC have radar data on every aircraft flying anywhere in Australia if they want to use it.

One night, during training a group of us flew into Tullamarine in four aircraft when it was quiet and were taken up to see the ATC guys in action in a room in the control tower.

They were all seated together in modules, each with a radar screen covering their area, and as new aircraft entered and called in the tile would go in the rack, as it moved into someone else's area it would go in their rack and whn it got home the tile would come out of the system, and it was good training  because we could see what was required of us when we made our calls, and how it was to our benefit. Suddenly there was some chuckling in the room; an aircraft was flying NVFR to Melbourne and had called "Overhead Eildon" Our operator showed him on the radar 80 Nm west of Eildon trying to fudge it and work his way towards Melbourne.

 

 

No they don't. They cannot see aircraft at low altitude and in hilly terrain. Anything under 5000 feet is virtually impossible to see unless close to the radar source and small composite aircraft have a very poor reflective image. If the aircraft does not have a transponder they have no idea what it is.

[turboplanner]

6 minutes ago, kgwilson said:

No they don't. They cannot see aircraft at low altitude and in hilly terrain. Anything under 5000 feet is virtually impossible to see unless close to the radar source and small composite aircraft have a very poor reflective image. If the aircraft does not have a transponder they have no idea what it is.

The radar doesn't tell them who you are unless they have identified themselves or have been observed at take off. At that time, before ADSB, there were a lot mre formal radio calls.

[Garfly]

1 hour ago, kgwilson said:

I put in submissions for government subsidising of low cost identification systems specifically the Skyecho 2 already approved by CASA. RA-Aus also supported this in their submissions. 50% Government subsidies have already been implemented in the US & UK. This will bring the Skyecho 2 down to $450.00 in which case I will get one.

 

If you have a factory built aircraft then you will have to get an approved installer for a wired in unit. As an amateur builder I can put whatever I like on my panel and with a stand alone Skecho2 no installation would be required in either case.

 

But kg, do you think they'd subsidise - or pay the full price of - an SE2 purchase now that this scheme has been announced?

And, in any case, wouldn't you prefer the 5K towards a proper Mode S (might even cover the whole cost, installed, no?).  One advantage of a real transponder is that you'd be set up for the ever imminent (next Xmas) CTA entry/transit. 

 

1 hour ago, kgwilson said:

 Guess what, today I received an Email from Airservices which includes the following paragraph.

"As a direct result of industry consultation, we continue to refine the proposal to enhance safety outcomes while balancing airspace access and equity for all airspace users. We have been focusing on clarifying the case for change in leveraging surveillance technology to reduce reliance on visual sighting of aircraft and pilot self-separation, particularly in airspace of increased risk profile."

While it is standard Public service speak it looks like they are supportive now of ADSB & not promoting transponders.

You had a good shot at translating that Sir Humphrey talk there, kg, but I'm not persuaded you're right.  For a start supporting ADSB does not mean not promoting transponders which, of course, are ADSB (except the old ones).  And I didn't see the word 'affordable' in there which might have pointed to their support for cheap gadgets for the pensioner.  My guess is that the plan is to get proper transponders into as many aircraft as possible and that the ECD experiment will quietly be shelved (except perhaps for UAVs).  But if there are other bureau-speak experts out there, please chime in with other interpretations.  Meanwhile, I'd happily accept a free Mode S unit as soon as I could get one fitted  (which may be a while, now). 

When I do, kg, how about a nicely subsidised pre-loved SkyEcho?  ;- )  On the other hand, one could keep the SE2 as an IN-only device to feed the EFB display since the in-panel display may not be as practical as an iPad screen.  Of course, you can't operate two ADSB-OUT devices at the same time.

Edited December 20, 2021 by Garfly

[jackc]

I am sure all the people who currently have Skyecho2 will keep using them regardless.  Probably wait years for the Mode S plan to leave its ‘holding pattern’ 🙂 

[Kenlsa]

1 hour ago, kgwilson said:

No they don't. They cannot see aircraft at low altitude and in hilly terrain. Anything under 5000 feet is virtually impossible to see unless close to the radar source and small composite aircraft have a very poor reflective image. If the aircraft does not have a transponder they have no idea what it is.

Took a tour of ATC in Adelaide a few years ago and was told that any aircraft with a speed less than 50kts was not seen on the screen. 
Bruce, you will have to fly a microlight with a slow wing and you will avoid the rozzers.

ken

[Garfly]

8 minutes ago, jackc said:

I am sure all the people who currently have Skyecho2 will keep using them regardless.  Probably wait years for the Mode S plan to leave its ‘holding pattern’ 🙂 

Yeah, I reckon the wait, even if the cash turns up, would be for the avionics shops to get in a supply of units and then ration installation slots.

 

This line from the RAAus email seems to be designed to calm those of us who might complain that we've already paid to play.

 

The funding also increases the value for those who have already invested in ADS-B technology by making the technology available to more people and improving situational awareness for all users.

[jackc]

2 minutes ago, Kenlsa said:

Took a tour of ATC in Adelaide a few years ago and was told that any aircraft with a speed less than 50kts was not seen on the screen. 
Bruce, you will have to fly a microlight with a slow wing and you will avoid the rozzers.

ken

No trouble for my Truster to be ‘under the radar’ 🙂 

[Kyle Communications]

I would get one of these

 

https://www.uavionix.com.au/tailbeaconx/

[kgwilson]

39 minutes ago, Garfly said:

But kg, do you think they'd subsidise - or pay the full price of - an SE2 purchase now that this scheme has been announced?

And, in any case, wouldn't you prefer the 5K towards a proper Mode S (might even cover the whole cost, installed, no?).  One advantage of a real transponder is that you'd be set up for the ever imminent (next Xmas) CTA entry/transit. 

 

You had a good shot at translating that Sir Humphrey talk there, kg, but I'm not persuaded you're right.  For a start supporting ADSB does not mean not promoting transponders which, of course, are ADSB (except the old ones).  And I didn't see the word 'affordable' in there which might have pointed to their support for cheap gadgets for the pensioner.  My guess is that the plan is to get proper transponders into as many aircraft as possible and that the ECD experiment will quietly be shelved (except perhaps for UAVs).  But if there are other bureau-speak experts out there, please chime in with other interpretations.  Meanwhile, I'd happily accept a free Mode S unit as soon as I could get one fitted  (which may be a while, now). 

When I do, kg, how about a nicely subsidised pre-loved SkyEcho?  ;- )  On the other hand, one could keep the SE2 as an IN-only device to feed the EFB display since the in-panel display may not be as practical as an iPad screen.  Of course, you can't operate two ADSB-OUT devices at the same time.

The statement is 50% subsidy with a maximum of $5000 which means 5k if the cost is 10k or 1/2 the price of a SE2.

 

I am totally opposed to installing a transponder of any mode. If all the 3500 RA aircraft were fitted with them air services would be overwhelmed at times. They are not compulsory now even in GA. I flew with transponders for 40 years and know they have a value especially once when I was 40NM out to sea and ran into a grey wall. I am far more concerned about other aircraft in my vicinity wherever I am, not relying on a busy controller to tell me. Apart from that they can't see me most of the time even if I had one. I fly into controlled airspace now and have no issues. It would be more of an issue around busy controlled airspace but I tend to avoid that anyway.

 

The original proposal from Airservices for lowering of class E specifically mentioned "Low cost surveilance technology" acknowledging the CASA initiative approving Skyecho 2 in July 2020.

 

The submission by RA-Aus  to Class E mark 2 had a very good section on the ridiculous cost of installation of transponders in all aircraft and the complete lack of real benefit of having to so so.

[Thruster88]

Kevin the SkyEcho2 for all intents and purposes is an ADS-B transponder just that it only has low power and only sqawks 1200. It transmits call sign, GPS position and altitude of the aircraft just like a proper ADS-B transponder. 

The SkyEcho2 also has the important IN bit which is why I will be keeping mine even if I fit a mode S or ADS-B transponder, wifi connected to a tablet allows equipped traffic to be seen.

 

I don't think air services will be swamped by recreational aircraft, there are a lot that don't fly much. There would be a way to only show the aircraft they are controlling on their display if necessary.

 

ADS-B transponders work aircraft to aircraft without the need for any ground station for pilot traffic awareness. This is the best bit. Bring it on. 

[Garfly]

1 hour ago, kgwilson said:

The statement is 50% subsidy with a maximum of $5000 which means 5k if the cost is 10k or 1/2 the price of a SE2.

 

I am totally opposed to installing a transponder of any mode. If all the 3500 RA aircraft were fitted with them air services would be overwhelmed at times. They are not compulsory now even in GA. I flew with transponders for 40 years and know they have a value especially once when I was 40NM out to sea and ran into a grey wall. I am far more concerned about other aircraft in my vicinity wherever I am, not relying on a busy controller to tell me. Apart from that they can't see me most of the time even if I had one. I fly into controlled airspace now and have no issues. It would be more of an issue around busy controlled airspace but I tend to avoid that anyway.

 

The original proposal from Airservices for lowering of class E specifically mentioned "Low cost surveilance technology" acknowledging the CASA initiative approving Skyecho 2 in July 2020.

 

The submission by RA-Aus  to Class E mark 2 had a very good section on the ridiculous cost of installation of transponders in all aircraft and the complete lack of real benefit of having to so so.

 

Yeah, fair enough, kg ... I'm interested to see if they will regard Electronic Conspicuity Devices as 'ADSB-technology' for the purpose of this grant.  I think they should.  But assuming they do, I'm pretty sure they won't accept them for Control Zone entry/transit (I don't think other places will be as flexible as your Coffs). And we still need clarity about which ATC facilities can actually see SE2s - and which IFR aircraft get them on their TCAS/CDTI screens. 

 

I agree that, in any case, they're great to have, if only for checking on nearby threats, but, there are much cheaper (c.$300) IN-only solutions that can do that much for us, too.  But for me it's a bit comforting (as well as a bit unnerving ;- )  to know that I'm visible to Centre as I wander around over hill and dale.  And to make use of Flight Following you need a proper transponder.

 

I hope you're right in your interpretation of what ASA sent you (that they might relent, clearing ECDs for [existing/future?] Class E). However, if only some ATC facilities - and only some airborne TCAS systems - can detect ECDs, I can't conceive of the feds doing that, even if they agree to subsidise them for use in Class G (still a highly desirable outcome for all concerned).

 

Lots to find out. Funny how we have to scratch around for the details between the lines in order to get the skinny.

 

But still, the whole issue does seem to be heading in the right direction; much more so than it did earlier in the year.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 20, 2021 by Garfly

[kgwilson]

I've done no research but the Uavionix Tailbeacon seems like a good option covering everything but I have no idea how it connects to what on your panel. Flight following is only useful to me over long water crossings & those I am no longer doing. When I am going anywhere my Spot tracker keeps my family informed so I don't give a rats about transponder codes. 99% is in uncontrolled airspace so I am just interested in what else is around in a 50NM radius & that they can see me as well. If I can get that tech for just $450.00 without any fancy installation, that is all I need. It connects to a number of free Aviation apps I can install on my tablet & phone as well.

[Thruster88]

Just for education I think the tailbeacon is ADS-B out only. The IN bit is what we pilots need in our aircraft for traffic awareness.  

[Garfly]

Yes, so a tailbeacon with a SkyEcho to feed your iPad with IN info might be the way to go, Thruster?

I wonder if the government would subsidise such a package!?   ;- )

But then, would a 'non-certified' tailbeacon be okay for CTA and Class E?   So many questions!

 

From the UAvionix Aust. website:

 

The SkyEcho2 portable ADS-B transceiver has been accepted by CASA as an approved Electronic Conspicuity (EC) Device as an enhancement to "See and Be Seen" from 16th July, 2020.

SkyEcho2 is the world’s first commercially available portable ADS-B IN and OUT system. Complete with an integrated TSO certified SBAS GPS and barometric altimeter, SkyEcho2 transmits your aircraft location, altitude, and identification via 1090MHz ADS-B, enabling you to be seen by nearby aircraft equipped with an ADS-B receiver. In Australia, the integrated ADS-B IN receiver connects wirelessly to your favorite Electronic Flight Bag (EFB) application adhering to an industry-standard protocol for ADS-B traffic – including OzRunways and AvPlan EFB.

SkyEcho2 brings the safety benefits of ADS-B to the cockpit without the high cost of installation. As unmanned systems are increasingly equipping with ADS-B receivers as a Detect and Avoid (DAA) technology – broadcasting your location via ADS-B enables the drone to remain well clear of your location, keeping the skies safer through cooperative communication.

Under the Australian Government’s Civil Aviation Order 20.18 Amendment, new standards have been published to encourage voluntary use of ADS-B OUT systems on Visual Flight Rules (VFR) aircraft. The aim of the amendment is to reduce the costs of installing air-to-air surveillance technology in VFR aircraft with a view to enhancing the basic VFR safety principle of “see and avoid.” In addition to the approval of EC devices like SkyEcho2, the use of non-certified ADS-B enabled transponders like tailBeaconX – EXP is permitted on experimental and light sport aircraft (LSA).

[onetrack]

I trust there's a lot of "forward planning" going on at CASA headquarters, as regards aircraft tracking - because the coming era of delivery drones, electric air taxis, and all the other projected plans for moving substantially increased numbers of passengers via air, is going to pose a very large tracking headache for CASA, Defence, and AirServices, unless they're well in front of the development progress curve.

The problem is, most Govts and their bureaucracies are usually caught napping with major and sudden technology changes, and generally fall back on a knee-jerk reaction to major technological changes, rather that being forward-looking and developing strategies to handle the changes.

And of course, we all know that you can fly in totally unihabited airspace all day - but the moment you intend to land, another aircraft often manages to pop out of the blue, and arrive at the same destination, at the same time, as you do.

 

https://www.mckinsey.com/featured-insights/the-next-normal/air-taxis

 

https://www.airservicesaustralia.com/about-us/innovation-and-technology/future-airspace-management/

[Garfly]

2 hours ago, kgwilson said:

The original proposal from Airservices for lowering of class E specifically mentioned "Low cost surveilance technology" acknowledging the CASA initiative approving Skyecho 2 in July 2020.

 

Can you find chapter and verse on that, kg?  Did it imply that ECs could be used in Class Echo?  

I used to think so, but was put right, here on this forum (by Horsefeathers) who quoted from the Sky Echo "Conditions of Use" letter

 

"The SkyEcho2 portable ADS‐B transceiver has been accepted by CASA as an approved Electronic
Conspicuity (EC) Device as an enhancement to "See and Be Seen" from 16th July, 2020.
Conditions of Use Apply
The SkyEcho2, and other EC devices, can be used voluntarily in aircraft operated to the Visual Flight Rules
(VFR) below FL290. An EC device cannot be used instead of a transponder for operations in Class A, C, or E airspace or above
10 000ft AMSL in Class G airspace."

 

So it will be very interesting to see just what, if anything, has changed and what was actually meant by the waffle in their email to you.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 20, 2021 by Garfly

[Thruster88]

14 hours ago, Kyle Communications said:

I would get one of these

 

https://www.uavionix.com.au/tailbeaconx/

This seems cheap until you add a control head $1500, cables plus installation.

 

The online prices for transponders is never a complete system price. Transponder, encoder, gps source, cables, antennas plus installation is all required. A simple all in one panel mounted box would be nice for simple aircraft.  

[Bruce Tuncks]

Low cost?  har har

I guess everything is low cost when you are spending somebody else's money.

[kgwilson]

This is what makes the SE2 such a good option for simple light aircraft. Cheap, approved, no installation requirements or cost, ADSB in/out, 50NM conspicuity of you to others including ground receivers and others to you, interface to practically any Android/IOS based Nav systems, moveable between aircraft, inability to be interrogated by ASA etc. What is not to like about it.

[jackc]

Reasons I bought one 🙂

 

[Kyle Communications]

Thruster...I have a MGL EFIS..it directly connects to it...I dont need the head

 

[Kyle Communications]

Well if CASA or the gubberment fella is going to front up a lot of the cost then get the best you can. The Tailbeacon also has Aerion the satellite based ADSB one as well as terrestrial and throw in a flashy bright light in the back for some bling....shit you have won me over

 

Oh by the way I do have a SE2

 

[Ironpot]

$45, 450,  4,500 or 45,000 how much do you value your lives boys?
 

Every bit of my home state of Queensland seems to have a Conquest or 206 doing low level survey work at 2000 constantly. Then add all the FIFOs and charters going into everything with a tarmac runway everywhere plus all the 208s and helis!! Much of it is invisible to ATS radar west of the J curve. 
 

It’s a no brainer - it’s like the jab - you definitely need it yesterday. Just get it.

[Old Koreelah]

1 hour ago, Ironpot said:

$45, 450,  4,500 or 45,000 how much do you value your lives boys?

Good point, but some of us have a very tight budget.

 

1 hour ago, Ironpot said:

It’s a no brainer - it’s like the jab - you definitely need it yesterday. Just get it.

Agreed, but who will invest precious $ and installation time without a cast-iron guarantee that our new gear won’t be made obsolete next year?

[Country Flyer]

Adsb in and out was never a ‘maybe’ when I did the upgrade a year ago.  As a low hour pilot and flying into non towered airports with RFDS and knowing where they are plus other aircrafts so equiped is worth every cent…. Sure expensive but if it helps me be safe and others know where I am then yes worth it….  We spend thousands on services, fuel, coffee !! 🙂 so spend some on safety so it may help you get home at night……. It’s helped me a couple of times already….. and less stress….  Sure what you buy today is out of date tomorrow…but you have to start somewhere…… I’m in support 100%