ADSB for all?

[Ironpot]

3 hours ago, Old Koreelah said:

Agreed, but who will invest precious $ and installation time without a cast-iron guarantee that our new gear won’t be made obsolete next year?

In life there are no guarantees but if you need assurances it’s currently installed in every single one of the IFR aircraft in Australia. 
Hope that helps. 

[jackc]

But the IFR aviators usually fly a lot higher than the lowly RAAus VFR pilots?

Anyway the Skyecho2 will do me until we end up with the decisions they want to make…..bet I will be DEAD by the time that happens, if past history is anything to go by…..

[KRviator]

On 20/12/2021 at 11:03 AM, turboplanner said:

Not correct, ATC have radar data on every aircraft flying anywhere in Australia if they want to use it.

Absolute rubbish. 👎

There are very few Secondary radar's in Australia and even fewer Primary Radar's. Even ADS-B doesn't provide nation-wide coverage at GA altitudes. Hell, just today I flew from out west of Spencer Gulf, SA to the Hunter Valley (730NM) with Flight Following, at 9,500' and with a full ADS-B out setup - not a low-power EC device - around the SA/NSW border was told "Due surveillance coverage, identification terminated", and it wasn't until I was near Ivanhoe that I got "ABC, identified, verify level" and resumed flight following. You can confirm that yourself by checking the ASA ADS-B coverage maps. Nationwide radar coverage? Pull the other one...

Now, FWIW, if you have a TSO'd GPS and a decent flightplan, I'm all for ADS-B, however, it will give an opportunity to ping you if you fly into a P/R area while on an evening jolly. The downside to ADS-B is, unless you have an aural traffic system, you can be drawn to the magic screen and spend more time looking for traffic on that than looking out the window. IT's a great tool, but like all tools, needs to be used appropriately.

[Garfly]

 

 

jackc said:

 

"But the IFR aviators usually fly a lot higher than the lowly RAAus VFR pilots?

Anyway the Skyecho2 will do me until we end up with the decisions they want to make…..bet I will be DEAD by the time that happens, if past history is anything to go by….."

 

Lots of mixed traffic sharing G space in lots of places, Jack. Every Airmed flight, rescue chopper, survey aircraft, charter flight, GA cargo and, of course, RPT flights, to name a few, are all 'IFR' flights that do much, if not most (in some cases), of their work in VMC in Class Golf. And pretty much all of them would have ADSB out transponders which makes it real easy to keep out of their way.

 

But it's not only IFR flights, more and more recreational/GA flyers (like you and me ;- ) are getting aboard.  And with this new government initiative, I'd say that, even in our lifetimes, most flying machines will be broadcasting where they are and what they're up to. Which, all things considered, is, I'd say, a good thing.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 21, 2021 by Garfly

[jackc]

I really want the system to work, I guess there are no total guarantees but to have a Skyecho2 is a good start.  I know range is not good at lower heights but ECDs should still be way better than nothing.  

[Garfly]

25 minutes ago, KRviator said:

 The downside to ADS-B is, unless you have an aural traffic system, you can be drawn to the magic screen and spend more time looking for traffic on that than looking out the window. 

KR yes, that's a possibility but I think it's to say no more than 'the downside of side and rear vision mirrors on cars is that you can fixate on them and run into someone in front.'  As true as that is, nobody would drive without the mirrors that provide vital information that no amount of looking out the front window ever will.  Would you agree?

Anyway, apropos your recent outback flight; what about aircraft to aircraft ADSB comms?  Presumably that works fine anywhere, right?  So even if you can't get flight following you can still keep track of all ADSB/ECD traffic in your vicinity, right? 

 

Edited December 21, 2021 by Garfly

[KRviator]

15 minutes ago, Garfly said:

Anyway, apropos your recent outback flight; what about aircraft to aircraft ADSB comms?  Presumably that works fine anywhere, right?  So even if you can't get flight following you can still keep track of all ADSB/ECD traffic in your vicinity, right? 

 

Yep, spot on. And that's the benefit of ADS-B over SSR-based traffic systems as, barring a relative few, "traditional" traffic systems used in GA required the intruder to be interrogated by SSR before generating an alert. No radar coverage? No traffic alerts....

ADS-B (and the glider version, FLARM) continuously tell the world "I am here, at X-thousand feet" - it doesn't care if anyone - or no one - is listening, it just keeps on keeping on. And, AIUI, the more advanced ADS-B systems can downlink your autopilot/FMS settings so ATC can confirm you have selected FL330 when he's cleared you to FL330. 

However, like the "ADS-B In" quandary of focusing on the screen, these are safety-of-flight messages and the GPS position must be accurate. That isn't a huge issue in and of itself with modern receivers, but certifying them as such is what costs lotsa $$ and why, traditionally, ADS-B has required high-end GNSS units. It's only fairly recently that the more enlightened NAA's have accepted that the likes of Dynon's GPS-2020 receiver are "good enough" and take Dynon's word of that, thus making them affordable for those of us with Dynon/AFS/G3X type systems. And let's face it, short of buying a 10(30?) year old mode-C unit, any transponder you buy these days is going to be Mode-S capable, so why not jut get a position source and be done with it? IF only for that once-a-year trip to the Birdsville races where you can have the security blanket of flight following keeping you out of trouble...

[kgwilson]

All the BS about GPS accuracy is so out of date. My phone is accurate to within about 6 metres at worst. Even my watch is accurate to within 10 metres. I use the internal GPS of my phone and tablet in 3 different navigation systems & it has never been wrong. This is also when there is no cellular coverage. Many cheaper cellular phones use AGPS which needs the cellular system as well using triangulation from towers to ensure reasonable accuracy.

 

Any good quality phone or tablet doesn't rely on AGPS now. Most are able to use at least 3 systems, usually GPS (USA), Galileo (Europe), Glonass (Russia), & Beidou (China). Then there is NaviC from India and Japans Quasi-Zenith.

 

There are also private systems such as Globalstar which covers most land masses but not some remote oceanic areas or Antactica. Globalstar owns Spot. My Spot tracker is usually accurate to within a couple of metres.

 

For RA aircraft certification is irrelevant and the industries building certified receivers are just ensuring they are on the Aviation gravy train when they are no more accurate than a modern mobile phone.

Edited December 21, 2021 by kgwilson

[coljones]

I could be wrong ...

 

Mode S is not ADSB-Out but you can add ADSB-Out to quite a lot of ModeS transponders by installing/adding a combined GPS Rx and antenna

 

ADSB-Out is not Mode S (or A or C)

 

ModeS responds to radar intercepts (where radar exists)

 

ADSB-Out dumps identity data including height and GPS Position continuously

 

ModeS only dumps id data including static pressure if (and only if) it is radar interrogated.

 

ADSB-In cannot receive Mode A, C or S signals, it only responds to ADSB-Out signals.

 

At the moment you don't need a Mode transponder in Class G or D but you do need a  Mode transponder in Class A, B, C and E (and maybe above 10,000 ft)

 

ADSB-Out squawk codes may make sense to ATC but the SkyEcho can, and should, be fixed to 1200 but which doesn't seem to be tracked by OzRunways.

 

I'm still trying to work out if my occasional bird of choice has ADSB-Out (Trig TT21) without crawling through the plane looking for the GPS source.  Either it doesn't or it has a squat switch but doesn't show up on ADSB In on OzRunways.

 

Cheers and may Santa bring you a SkyEcho so you don't need to wait around for (yet another) government promise to be fulfilled.

Edited December 21, 2021 by coljones

[coljones]

1 hour ago, kgwilson said:

For RA aircraft certification is irrelevant and the industries building certified receivers are just ensuring they are on the Aviation gravy train when they are no more accurate than a modern mobile phone.

TSO means that they don't cook in cockpits above 25C or exhibit other weird propensities when the only device available. We need an aviation Choice magazine which will test these things within an inch of their lives before hapless and innocent owners install them in their planes.

[Garfly]

46 minutes ago, coljones said:

 

ADSB-Out squawk codes may make sense to ATC but the SkyEcho can, and should, be fixed to 1200 but which doesn't seem to be tracked by OzRunways.

 

I'm still trying to work out if my occasional bird of choice has ADSB-Out (Trig TT21) without crawling through the plane looking for the GPS source.  Either it doesn't or it has a squat switch but doesn't show up on ADSB In on OzRunways.

 

Col,  do you have an ADSB-IN source networked to your tablet so that OzRunways has access to ADSB targets?  Of course, its own traffic system only shows the aircraft of other participating OzRWY users, by way of a cell data connection.

At a minimum, you need something like a uAvionix PingUSB (ADSB-IN only) networked to your iOS device to receive ADSB traffic for display on your EFB screen.  OzRWYs happens to display ADSB derived targets as dark blue icons while its own traffic shows up as light blue (this distinguishes the two types of information).  In such a case you'd see OzRwys traffic across the whole country (where cell networks exist) but you'd only see ADSB traffic nearby (visible to the Ping).  The ADSB info, though, is of higher quality; for example, it updates every second or so whilst the cell network lags a bit (typically just a few seconds).

Anyway, that's as I understand it.

 

https://www.uavionix.com.au/pingusb/

Edited December 21, 2021 by Garfly

[coljones]

Garfly,

I have the SkyEcho 2 teamed to RWY (OzRunways) on a Samsung Tablet.

I have only set it up as ADSB-In till I sort out the Trig TT21 ADSB Out status.

I can see both the light blue (ozRunways) swarm and the dark blue (ADSB) swarm but no ADSB Out from the (my) planes TT21 in flight, because, I suppose, it hasn't activated the ADSB Out because there is no GPS source.

ADSB Out is a project in progress but ADSB In works well,  I have, during the Covid Lockdown, been tracking heavies as they fly over the house at 1500 ft.

On long flights, out of mobile range, ADSB is the only way to get situational awareness.  Telstra is getting better with a range of small 4G Cells being installed at remote sites but they are not contiguous and the OzRunways swarm can't be seen (and planes on lesser mobile networks can't even transmit their position).

Cheers

[turboplanner]

8 hours ago, KRviator said:

Absolute rubbish. 👎
 

I was talking about Radar, not ADS-B coverage

[Garfly]

5 hours ago, coljones said:

Garfly,

I have the SkyEcho 2 teamed to RWY (OzRunways) on a Samsung Tablet.

I have only set it up as ADSB-In till I sort out the Trig TT21 ADSB Out status.

I can see both the light blue (ozRunways) swarm and the dark blue (ADSB) swarm but no ADSB Out from the (my) planes TT21 in flight, because, I suppose, it hasn't activated the ADSB Out because there is no GPS source.

ADSB Out is a project in progress but ADSB In works well,  I have, during the Covid Lockdown, been tracking heavies as they fly over the house at 1500 ft.

On long flights, out of mobile range, ADSB is the only way to get situational awareness.  Telstra is getting better with a range of small 4G Cells being installed at remote sites but they are not contiguous and the OzRunways swarm can't be seen (and planes on lesser mobile networks can't even transmit their position).

Cheers

Ah, sorry I misunderstood your earlier post.   Yes, you're probably right about the Trig. Have you tried to check if it shows up on something like the AvTraffic or FlightRadar24 app?  It might need someone else on the ground checking while you fly.   But yes, I see that you want to be sure the Trig's not transmitting at all before you allow your SE2 to do so. But once enabled the SkyEcho2, as you know, should show up on those aps - and in OzRwys - as RXXXX (when airborne, but not on your own device, I think, when the 'own ship' filter is on).

[KRviator]

3 hours ago, turboplanner said:

I was talking about Radar, not ADS-B coverage

I know that. And if you honestly believe ASA has nation-wide radar coverage, I have this beaut bridge with a great view of the Opera House I'll sell you cheap.

Here is the CASA ADS-B coverage map during the rollout of ADS-B in Australia, circa 2017. Green is ADS-B, blue is SSR. Get outside the J-Curve, Perth or the Tindal/Darwin area and there is no coverage! Which is why ASA+CASA mandated ADS-B in the NW region of WA years before the rest of the country - because they have heavy jets flying into multiple airports only 30NM apart, which absolutely zero visibility of where they are in relation to a potential conflict...

This kind of coverage is precisely why ADS-B is great for those of us that fly beyond radar coverage. Not only does it show other aircraft where you are - but your missus or kids can track you to your destination using FA/FR24.

[Kyle Communications]

The TailbeaconX is a ADSB OUT only ...that gives you the full output power 200 or 250 watts for distance to send your realtime data. The SE2 is used as your reciever for ADSB IN.  The only shortfall I see is the SE2 needs its own external antenna to increase its "looking range" It will see up to 40nm with its own inboard antenna but that totally is only if it is placed in a good position in the cockpit. Many things can affect it due to shielding inside the cabin. The SE2 with its 20 odd watts with a external antenna would be far better for IN and OUT which it does. Anything with radio as JackC will attest to as well is "height is might" no matter how much power you have the next is path loss. That path loss also includes what is blocking you transmission physically

 

 

[Garfly]

Mark, is the TailbeaconX  that you have approved as a proper transponder for Class C and E entry?

[Kyle Communications]

I believe so..its been approved in the USA but it hasnt been released yet here but is expected to be. It is being used in the USA as I know a few there using it now

 

I really like the satcom side of it but not sure if thats a free service or what yet. But that makes its truely a worldwide service and no ground stations are needed

 

[Kyle Communications]

Transmitting equipment here must be approved and typed by the ACMA I think this is probably the hold up. Usually anything the FCC approves it will get a aproval here

[Garfly]

Yeah, we still need to find out the details of just what level of gear they're planning to subsidise.

But it'd be a shame if they approve a particular transponder - and even subsidise it - initially, say, as an electronic conspicuity device, but later determine that it didn't qualify for Class C or E entry. And yet other types (even of similar cost) end up being deemed acceptable.

I think the ability to seek clearance through Class C and other restricted areas will be a biggie (for both safety and convenience) for many of us. So we need to wait and see how all this pans out.

 

I remember that I was convinced (after studying that CASA advisory circular -see attached) that the SE2 would be a free pass for us to operate in Class E. But that turned out to be an over hopeful interpretation on my part.   But, hey, maybe it's all changing again. 

 

The secret is in that coded email message from AsA.  LOL  

 

 

 

advisory-circular-91-23-ads-b-enhancing-situational-awareness (1).pdf

Edited December 22, 2021 by Garfly

[KRviator]

Pretty sure anything that is going to be used in C/E must have a [Position] Source Integrity Level of 2 or 3. From memory, the EC devices are usually only 1. 

[Kyle Communications]

To go into Class C or E you will need a full power ADSB OUT transponder..thats all they care about..the ADSB IN is for your cockpit...so I think currently and it would make sense for ASA and CASA that they subsidize the full power TX and if you want the ADSB IN then you get a SE2

 

[Garfly]

4 hours ago, KRviator said:

...   Here is the CASA ADS-B coverage map during the rollout of ADS-B in Australia, circa 2017. Green is ADS-B, blue is SSR. Get outside the J-Curve, Perth or the Tindal/Darwin area and there is no coverage! Which is why ASA+CASA mandated ADS-B in the NW region of WA years before the rest of the country - because they have heavy jets flying into multiple airports only 30NM apart, which absolutely zero visibility of where they are in relation to a potential conflict...

This kind of coverage is precisely why ADS-B is great for those of us that fly beyond radar coverage. Not only does it show other aircraft where you are - but your missus or kids can track you to your destination using FA/FR24.

 

 

And ADSB coverage is a lot better now.  This is last year at 10K

 

 

https://www.airservicesaustralia.com/about-us/projects/ads-b/ads-b-coverage/

 

 

 

 

Edited December 22, 2021 by Garfly

[Garfly]

24 minutes ago, Kyle Communications said:

To go into Class C or E you will need a full power ADSB OUT transponder..thats all they care about..the ADSB IN is for your cockpit...so I think currently and it would make sense for ASA and CASA that they subsidize the full power TX and if you want the ADSB IN then you get a SE2

 

 

Okay, if that's all they care about, then the TailbeaconX should be fine for C/E.  But it seems there's an experimental version and a certified one, right?   I'm struggling to interpret  uAvionix's own wording about the regulator's attitude to the EXP version but since they use the word 'transponder' I guess they mean it'll be permissible to seek clearance into Charlie and Echo with one. 

 

From the uAvionix website:

 

"Under the Australian Government’s Civil Aviation Order 20.18 Amendment, new standards have been published to encourage voluntary use of ADS-B OUT systems on Visual Flight Rules (VFR) aircraft. The aim of the amendment is to reduce the costs of installing air-to-air surveillance technology in VFR aircraft with a view to enhancing the basic VFR safety principle of “see and avoid.” In addition to the approval of EC devices like SkyEcho2, the use of non-certified ADS-B enabled transponders like tailBeaconX – EXP is permitted on experimental and light sport aircraft (LSA)."

 

 

 

 

Edited December 22, 2021 by Garfly

[Kyle Communications]

If you build it they will come :)...experimental we can use if you of course build a experimental or your own. There is no difference what so ever between the 2 versions except the certified one is for commercial ops. It comes with the required paperwork to make it so. For private ops I would expect you can use the experimental one but not if you are taking paid pax