Boeing and Airbus call for safety delay in US 5G rollout. Any knowledgeable comments on this?

[IBob]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/news/127354766/bitter-rivals-airbus-and-boeing-team-up-to-call-for-delay-of-5g-rollout-in-us

[Garfly]

Juan Browne had something to say on it recently:

 

 

 

 

[facthunter]

It's a spectrum overlap/interference thing Towers near airports are also a problem, as are operating pads etc on board aircraft. Nev

[Geoff_H]

When I picked up my car in 2019 the 3G and GPS were interfering with each other.  Data was being stopped and the GPS had me in the middle of McCarrs creek.  The two antennas are in the only little enclosure at the rear of the roof.  Overseas did not have this problem, so they said.  In Australia we often use the lower end frequencies of 4G as their range is better, especially near where I live.  Well some Germans came out with a lot of test gear and it looks like the problem is solved.  The FAA is worried that 5G will interfere with their GPS equipment as I believe that the frequencies are very close.

[facthunter]

As I read it it's with Radar  altimeters. Nev

[Geoff_H]

I think that you are right Nev.  I should have researched a little more.  I was so pissed about my car I was on the verge of demanding my money back when they fixed it 

[RFguy]

Looks like no problem, from my POV, Boeing and Airbus just are beating this up. as long as the 5G terrestrial land based radios really ARE making their required specifications.

And as far as radio altimeters being susceptible , well that's another piece of old sh1tbox aviation technology that needs to be dragged into the modern era from the 1940s....

Edited December 22, 2021 by RFguy

[Methusala]

Well, George Christensen et al believe that the satanic virus Sars-Cov 2 is somehow mixed up with 5G emissions (honestly, I can't figure this out but I admit, I'm no expert). Should just leave it to work itself out. Boeing  and Airbus are successful corporations so they should know something.

[onetrack]

My scientific qualifications are minimal - but as I understand it, 5G utilises millimetre-wave technology, as compared to microwave technology for many other telecommunication devices.

And this mm-wave propagation distance is pretty limited - 200 metres on average, according to what I've read. So, as a result, there needs to be a vast increase in the number of antennas needed for 5G devices.

The information I have perused tells me that the 5G signal is limited to a maximum of 500M metres on average - under good conditions. Rainfall, vegetation, buildings and numerous other shielding situations, impact on the 5G signal severely.

As a result, I fail to see where there's a major interference problem - unless the 5G-wave emitting device is right under, or next to, a flight path, and near an airport boundary.

Admittedly, in very high density areas, this is a potential problem - but as most commercial aircraft are still travelling at around 250kmh on final approach, that means the actual interference time with a 5G tower close to the flight path, would appear to be minimal.

In addition, simply ensuring that all 5G towers were located a minimum of 500 metres from flight paths/airport boundaries, seems to be the simple solution to eliminating 5G/radio altimeter interference.

I guess the proof of the pudding will be in actual flight tests over 5G towers, purposely located for test purposes, close to, or under flight paths.

 

Blancolirio's explanation is very good, as usual, but I personally believe he's becoming unduly alarmed at the potential size of the threat.

Probably the biggest worrying part of the whole deal, is that the FAA's main telecommunications advisor, the RTCA, is a non-profit organisation relying entirely on aviation communication volunteers, for providing technical expertise!

Compare that to the absolutely massive funds that the telecommunications companies have available at their fingertips, to destroy any opposition to their profit-making telecommunication ventures, and that is where the problems develop. Remember Boeing's constant striving for profits over safety?

 

https://www.viavisolutions.com/en-us/5g-technology

 

Edited December 24, 2021 by onetrack

[Old Koreelah]

10 minutes ago, onetrack said:

The information I have perused tells me that the 5G signal is limited to a maximum of 500M metres on average - under good conditions…

…which means most of us will never get to use 5G phones.

[RFguy]

5G technologies are a suite of options for telcos.

Both Microwave (4GH ish- IE centimeter waves - C band) and millimeter waves ~ 30 GHz.

 

they're concerned about C band.

[Cyrano]

As mentioned the 5G can interfere with radio altimeters on aircraft. Usually there are two fitted. So what you might say but the RADALT signal is intergrated into many aircraft systems. For example it changes the sensitivity to the ILS signal as you get closer to the ground. If both radalts are unserviceable the approach must be flown manually (Airbus) as the autopilot will not receive correct commands as altitude reduces. During autoland operations in low visibility it commands the engine thrust to idle during the flare. If interference occurred from a 5G signal the engines could go to idle at say 2,000' thinking it were in the flare.

 There are dozens of other potential problems but the above gives a taste of the issues!

 

http://www.alpa.org/resources/aircraft-operations-radar-altimeter-interference-5G#:~:text=Radar altimeter interference from 5G signals can take the form,1951 in Amsterdam in 2009.

[RFguy]

naaa I think it is  total BS. near the ground (say 30m)  in a flare is where its least likely to be any interference issue.  returned ground echoes are super strong at that point due to range and surface uniformity.

[Cyrano]

Yes, you are correct but that is not what was said. An erroneous RA signal earlier on the approach can  command the auto thrust to idle thinking it is in the flare.

[RFguy]

mmmm.

if it flew right over the top of a 5G base station, over irregular terrain (with poor, incoherent reflectivity) then.. maybe yes, if it was pretty dumb, and most aviation avionics is just that...

Edited January 17, 2022 by RFguy

[facthunter]

Trust the experts on this one. Autoland permits you to land in low ceiling and visibility conditions 2 autopilots operating and everything working. The radio altimeter function is essential.  It's not a matter for an opinion where FACTS should be all you deal with. Nev

[Garfly]

 

 

[RFguy]

like I said -YES could cause problems if it flew over the top.

 

but really airlines should be forced  to bring their radar altimeters into the 20th century, let alone 21st century. there isnt any excuse for it using WW2 tech.

 

[Jabiru7252]

Maybe the pilots are all vaccinated and are scared that 5G will 'activate' the nano-bots the vaccine has put in their bodies? Believe me, some folks think that. But, being serious, tests have shown that 5G is interfering with aviation systems, surveying systems and apparently medical systems. I can't find the site, but there is an article out there (not by nutters) that digs into this problem.

[danny_galaga]

Heard the CEO of Boost mobile on the radio the other day. He lives in the US now and also flies helicopters. He said there may be a problem in the US but that the term 5g is a broad definition (after all, it just means 5th generation). In particular, the system in Australia and Japan are quite different to the US system so there shouldn't be any problems here. 

[kgwilson]

Both Airbus & Boeing have now confirmed an agreement with the 5G Telcos (Verizon & AT&T etc) & virtually all of their aircraft are fitted with radio altimeters that are not affected by the 5 G rollout near airports. There are a few Embraer & others that need changes apparently.

https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/5g-threat-fizzles-no-big-disruptions-expected/?MailingID=819&utm_source=ActiveCampaign&utm_medium=email&utm_content=5G+Fizzle%2C+ICON+Investigation&utm_campaign=5G+Fizzle%2C+ICON+Investigation-MONDAY%2C+January+24%2C+2022

[Flightrite]

I’d like a dollar for every time a Mob Ph was used whilst in flight on my missions, was hourly sometimes! Remember those days when everyone was petrified that using yr Mob Ph would bring down a plane! I expect many will be hiding under their beds along with those ‘other’ scared sheeple😂😂

Edited February 2, 2022 by Flightrite

[RFguy]

if they were dangerous they wouldnt let them in the cabin...