Question re MTOW increase

[red750]

I haven't held a pilot's licence or certificate since 1986 and never will again, so I haven't kept up to date with the proposed change to MTOW rules. My question is, can an aircraft with a MTOW of 750 kg yet be classed as recreational or is it still GA? 

[Kyle Communications]

Officially CASA says yes...BUT  RAA havent done their part in getting all the finer bits sorted and published ..it is called Group G and is up to 760kg MTOW but a max stall speed at 45kts

 

[Kyle Communications]

There are other caveats though but its well under way

 

[red750]

Thanks Mark. Trying to work out which category to put planes in, in the showcase.

[johnm]

increases the value of those planes that fit < 760 kgs and stall < 45 kts ............................... I guess most of that $ speculation has been made ?

[KRviator]

I think some of the RV's - particularly the -9's will benefit from an increase in value. I'm not sure a -7 or -8 will meet the stall speed at 760Kg - they're 44.5Kts at only 635Kg according to The Mothership, whereas a -9 is 43.5Kts at 790Kg.

Perhaps some of the C150/152 series? 

[Cosmick]

But there will be a weight at which the stall is 44.9 kts maybe 650 or 680 or 715 kg. Can the mtow be other than 600 or 760kg.

[red750]

I was prompted to ask this question when new member TheFlying Auctioneer posted a profile of his Aquila AT01, which has a MTOW of 750 kg., in the Recreational 3-axis section. There is already a profile for the Aquila, under it's marketing name A210, in the General Aviation Single Engine category.

 

It appears that TFA's Aquila, photographed in its VH rego, is one of the first, if not the first, 750 kg MTOW aircraft to be registered by RAAus.

 

Both profiles can remain, because some readers may only look in one category, however, where profiles exist in GA single for aircraft which may now be RAAus registered, fresh profiles will not be generated in future. There are already a few aircraft which can be registered in either category. A couple of duplicates have occurred by accident in the past, in over 1100 profiles, but this is not encouraged.

 

Finally, a public welcome to the forum to TheFlying Auctioneer. Enjoy your status as one of the first 750 kg jockeys in RAAus.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

So long as the weight is 760kg or lower and the stall speed is 45kts or less at any weight between 600 and 760kg is my understanding

 

[RFguy]

I wonder where this will lead the industry.

 

IE

-new planes with big  or fat wings ? 

- lower end GA airplane adoption ? (C150). (does this mean spin training could be done in an RA reg C150 aerobat ?) (but why might be a counter question) .

 

The J230D (A quasi 4 seater)  will make 45 kts and 650kg and still have good , favourable CG position . 

But most LSA would have unfavourable CG posiiton when stuff is loaded up in the rear.

 

 

[SSCBD]

23 minutes ago, RFguy said:

would have unfavourable CG posiiton when stuff is loaded up

Explain please 

[turboplanner]

So the 760 kg has now been formally approved by CASA?

 

[Blueadventures]

1 hour ago, turboplanner said:

So the 760 kg has now been formally approved by CASA?

 

I read it that CASA support 760kg but / however administering bodies require CASA approval to exercise the rule ( and I believe RAA is hoping to gain approval mid '22; need a bit of luck me thinks).

[Kyle Communications]

CASA has approved it on the 2nd December and as Mike says RAA now have to come up with how it will be implemented and all the processes for maint  and proper licence conditions etc. CASA then have to approve this but from what I hear it will be along the same lines as the experimental that is in place now for GA. I think RAA hope to get it done early this year maybe June but also they need to have in place any courses and specs for those courses and course material to comply with the rules

[Blueadventures]

41 minutes ago, Kyle Communications said:

CASA has approved it on the 2nd December and as Mike says RAA now have to come up with how it will be implemented and all the processes for maint  and proper licence conditions etc. CASA then have to approve this but from what I hear it will be along the same lines as the experimental that is in place now for GA. I think RAA hope to get it done early this year maybe June but also they need to have in place any courses and specs for those courses and course material to comply with the rules

I'm sure RAA will be ready with their submission early in 2022; just need CASA to expedite an answer (applying common sense logic, not placing their usual hurdles in front of submissions).

[red750]

As mentioned in my last reply, TheFlying Auctioner has advised me that his Aquila was registered with RAAus, a fortnight ago.

[turboplanner]

1 minute ago, red750 said:

As mentioned in my last reply, TheFlying Auctioner has advised me that his Aquila was registered with RAAus, a fortnight ago.

That's interesting.

[Blueadventures]

Just now, turboplanner said:

That's interesting.

Absolutely agree.  

[clouddancer]

I think there would be an announcement from RAAus if they could register 760 kg MTOW aircraft already.

Mid 2022 is what has been provided in emails by RAAus

[turboplanner]

1 hour ago, clouddancer said:

I think there would be an announcement from RAAus if they could register 760 kg MTOW aircraft already.

Mid 2022 is what has been provided in emails by RAAus

Depeds what information is provided; if it says you can register a 760 kg aircaft from mid 2022 that's a confirming statement, but they don't appear to have any authority to do that and in any case the information we have from a post on this site is that an airctaft has been registered (past tense). Who is correct?

[Kyle Communications]

It maybe registered in Group G as it officially does extist as a category. Whether it has a certificate to fly though is another matter. Maybe Flying Auctioneer may be able to tell us some info on his discussions. I was looking at the specs that Red750 has posted. 130kts with a 912 seems pretty hopefull.... at 400kg empty

[Thruster88]

I am guessing it would be restricted to 600kg at the moment. I thought that was against the rules. 

[Thruster88]

If it was registered group G then it cannot be flown because that requires an endorsement, nothing in place yet for that. The question I have is why anyone would change from VH reg to group G anyway.  A satisfactory flight review will get you an RPL.🤔

[RFguy]

"7 hours ago, RFguy said: would have unfavourable CG posiiton when stuff is loaded up"
SSCBD said " Explain please ".  

Consider a LSA W&B problem : : . two pax + full fuel+10kg behind the seats  = 600kg, 40 kts stall. Sounds like this plane can go to 650kg and 45 kts stall.. maybe lots of room for some extra camping gear behind the seats ???

 but closer examination of the airplane reveals that the airplane is at max aft CG in this described configuration, So, while plenty of kg in hand, there is no capability to put more (weight)  in the back behind the seats due to max aft CG limit would be exceeded ,There are a few LSA low wings I know of that would be in this situation. 

I think that was the question??? (or did I go off track ??? 🙂  . 

Umm what's  a group G ? Group G to me was a heavily modified production race car (rally) when I was a kid. 

[pmccarthy]

A couple of fatties in the seats might move the CoG foreword a bit and allow more luggage.