Cost of training?

[kgwilson]

Passenger carrying was always part of the PPL. The instructor while technically the PIC is the passenger once you have been solo. Why does passenger carrying require a flight test. The flight test is for your RPC. Then you do 10 or whatever the hours are & you are provided with a passenger endorsement.

 

In PPL as soon as you get your PPL you are OK to take a passenger. When upgrading from the 152 to the 172 I had to do what was called an "all up weight check" which meant 2 extra people and some weighed bags of sand to make up for luggage till we got to MTOW. Simple & total hours was 4.5 & 1 hour of that was the AUWC.

[Geoff_H]

Would the talk about seat belts etc before take off and emergency outfield landing constitute passenger carrying?  Can't think of anything else I did.  Did my licence in 1980.  Did a lot of FullSAR, SARTime and landing at international airports.  Very different flying then.

[facthunter]

How did you determine the MTOW? and what form did the flight take?  I'm genuinely interested.  Nev

[kgwilson]

By a standard weight & balance. We all had to be weighed on the club scales & the sand was weighed, fuel calculated from the dip check etc. Might not be accurate to the last kg but pretty close. Standard PAX weights we not allowed at our club.

 

As I remember we used the main sealed runway for the takeoff and did various manoeuvres once at altitude, power off stalls but no power & flap to get a wing drop. The 2 pax were an employee of mine and his girlfriend. Scaring the pants off them was not on the agenda. Medium & steep turns were part of it and I talked them through everything at the instructors insistence. The first landing was on the seal and the next was on the club grass strip & I had to do one engine out on downwind forced landing. There may have been other details but it is so long ago I can't really remember much more. I think there were 4 landings and takeoffs all up.

[facthunter]

I don't know what your density altitude was but usually the 172 can't carry four and luggage with full tanks or anything near it, Standard weights are not allowed in any but approved planes of higher capacity so the average can be more constant.. Use of such practices can be quite questionable. I've even known one airline to weight the lighter ones and apply standard weight  to the others.. Nev

[kgwilson]

I know that, and that is why we did a full W&B. I don't remember the DA on the day but I know I had to do all the calculations (by hand) to determine the MTOW, runway length req'd etc. The Airport was Hamilton International in NZ about 175' AMSL.

 

Many years later a friend got a 180hp 172 (the one where the seat rail let go on TO in another thread) & after it was done up, 4 blokes including me (60kg then), full fuel & gear went to Warbirds over Wanaka. We did a W&B but were well overweight but with the extra 20 HP & a big fuel burn we were all good within an hour & half of takeoff.

[aro]

I don't know the rules in NZ, but in Australia you can't practice emergency procedures with a passenger on board.

 

I have also done a check at MTOW in a 172, but it's not required for the PPL. Technically you can do your PPL in a 152 or even a GA reg Jabiru and then fly a 172 with 4 people on board. Checkout flights and all up weight checks are generally a policy of the aircraft owner or the insurance company - they are a good idea, but not the law.

 

The passenger endorsement in RAA seems to be a hangover from the early AUF days when most aircraft were single seat and training was minimal. 2 seat aircraft for training or carrying passengers would have been unusual at one point. I think when I first flew with AUF you also needed a medical to carry passengers, which wasn't required for solo flight. RAA do love their endorsements though - last I checked there were several RAA endorsements that don't exist in GA.

[kgwilson]

In NZ there was a rating for each aircraft type. I think this  is still the case. This was abandoned in Australia quite some time ago so in theory once you have a PPL you can legally fly any piston single with fixed prop & gear. It is always a good idea to do a check with an instructor on any new type. In training we did a lot of engine out downwind in the circuit landings. It was more like a glide approach than a full FLWOP away from the aerodrome. I still do these every now & again for practice. A lot has changed in 40 years.

Edited January 24, 2022 by kgwilson

[kasper]

Cost of training ... for me in the mid '90's training on Jab LSA55s I paid $105/hr when training and $90/hr wet hire after license.

 

I did my AUF certificate in 10 months Jan-Dec of weekends and had the pax and cross country for around $5,775.  With inflation that would be $10k today.

 

The flying school still exists today (Dave at the Oaks) and is even using the same airframes (plus new ones) but the hour training/hire rates for the LSA55 today are lower in real terms than in 1999 - $170 training and $140 wet hire.

 

[spenaroo]

most flight schools list the per hour cost on their website, this is what you have to be able to afford.
think I worked out my RPC (achieved it a few days ago) was 18k

your probably wondering why so much. I was about 60 hours dual, 8 hours solo.

(ill have to check but think me first solo was around the 30 hour mark)

its a lot of time when you say it like that....

I started in 2019, and flying is a hobby.
originally I could only fly once every two weeks due to work and other commitments. made it affordable but slow to learn as you don't develop muscle memory. I also flew with different instructors because I had to fit it around my schedule - so would take whoever was free at the time. on top of this I went through several lockdowns that wiped out my progress. I also I opted to change aircraft when the flight school updated its fleet, also adding to my cost and time. plus a few flights for the sake of flying, too stressed or exhausted so played in the training area instead of a lesson of PFL's etc...

Sure I did lots of flying I probably didn't have to, but its added to my experience.

If you want to get it in a decent amount of time and for less money.... its going to cost you upfront.
I recently moved interstate so spent the last week treating it as my fulltime job to get the certification, flew 13 hours in 8 days. and spent the rest of the time studying.
it was intense but the growth reflected it. It also wasn't enjoyable, it had its moments (really loved slipping it in with crosswinds that were on the limit). but having that deadline added so much stress and anxiety.

Edited January 29, 2022 by spenaroo

[kgwilson]

Congratulations on attaining your RPC. It is an achievement few people get and the time taken is irrelevant. I know of one person who has over 50 hours logged but is yet to fly solo. The flying is over a number of years and  he doesn't care if it takes him the rest of his life. It is a hobby and the buzz he gets from taking the controls while having an instructor there is worth it.

[planedriver]

Don't whinge at the cost of your training providing it is good.

It could prove to be money very well invested in you.

Some may have got theirs a bit cheaper a while back, as can be seen on the attached photo.

 

 

[johnm]

kgwilsons takeoff at hamilton reminded me of a cherokee 140 ? at commercial flight school motueka - 1980's - 4 aspiring pilots and the book said this plane would fly but not much flight over the end fence - the book was correct - we were n't much over the fence on takeoff

[Jerry_Atrick]

Amazing what a passenger carrying endorsement (OK.. a GA licence) will lead people to do...

 

I remember after I got my PPL at Moorabbin, I bundled two light friends (both about 62kg) into the PA28 and the difference in handling was noticeable..