Goolwa Hangar 1: Jabiru 0 30/12/21

[KRviator]

Just to prove it isn't always engine failure that can kill a Jabiru, one speared off the runway and into a hangar at Goolwa today while landing. 2POB enroute to the hospital with moderate injuries. I'm actually fairly impressed he's managed to get it between that other door outrigger &the water tank though!

Images courtesy of the ABC...

 

 

[onetrack]

How the dickens did he do that? The wind was reportedly 6-9kts from the SE at the time, turning Southerly and lighter now. Did he get hit by a wind gust?

 

Those buildings are at the end of the runway! He went a lo-o-ong way off the runway, to do that! 

Also, the airport cam didn't pick up his excursion, or even his landing?

 

https://www.windy.com/-Outdoor-map-map?map,-35.475,138.747,18

 

Edited December 30, 2021 by onetrack

[turboplanner]

16 minutes ago, onetrack said:

How the dickens did he do that? The wind was reportedly 6-9kts from the SE at the time, turning Southerly and lighter now. Did he get hit by a wind gust?

 

Those buildings are at the end of the runway! He went a lo-o-ong way off the runway, to do that! 

Also, the airport cam didn't pick up his excursion, or even his landing?

 

https://www.windy.com/-Outdoor-map-map?map,-35.475,138.747,18

 

A LOT of Jabs reported in the RAA accidents section of the magazine land nose down and wheelbarrow in a semi circle off the runway with about a quarter of them finishing up resting on nose or wing, or upside down.   This accident may have had nothing to do with that, but that manouvre is close to No1 in the RAA Magazine.

 

[440032]

Instructor, on go-around: "Punch it!"

Student "YES SIR!"

 

(too soon??)

[Jase T]

Hope that wasn't the instructor from down that way that posts on youtube a lot? 

[Thruster88]

Has to be a messed up tail wind go around or a throttle malfunction on the taxi way.  

[pmccarthy]

Jab fuse probably ok, hangar severely dented.

[440032]

Is that the port aileron on the water tank?

[facthunter]

Always keep the weight off the nosewheel with a Jabiru. Nev

[alf jessup]

2 minutes ago, facthunter said:

Always keep the weight off the nosewheel with a Jabiru. Nev

Never a truer word spoken FH.

[horsefeathers]

3 minutes ago, facthunter said:

Always keep the weight off the nosewheel with a Jabiru. Nev

Ummmm, why specifically a Jab? - surely good advice for all tricycle aircraft

[facthunter]

Because it's more critical with  Jabiru's than most other aircraft.. Nev

[horsefeathers]

Just now, facthunter said:

Because it's more critical with  Jabiru's than most other aircraft.. Nev

What is the reasoning behind that? A weaker nosewheel? More sensitive geometry?

[facthunter]

They wheel barrow and are known to be fairly easy to lose directional control. Just spear off to one side in a big arc IF you aren't careful. It's even a good idea at the commencement of the Take off roll to start with the stick well back and ease it forward to get a more definite lift off point as the speed builds up.. Nev

[JEM]

I flew Jabs of all models except 250 for 11 years (owned one for 7) and never had a nosewheel or wheelbarrowing event nor heard of one either.  

[lee-wave]

A bit similar to this incident at the Cambridge gliding club in 2019.... 

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5f44d22cd3bf7f67afe3052b/Jabiru_UL-450_G-ROYC_05-20.pdf

 

As with all types of aircraft, both taildraggers and nosewheel, stick well back on touch down, keep looking straight ahead and maintain direction with rudders.   The flight is not over until the aircraft has stopped.

 

 

[turboplanner]

31 minutes ago, JEM said:

I flew Jabs of all models except 250 for 11 years (owned one for 7) and never had a nosewheel or wheelbarrowing event nor heard of one either.  

You probably flew them correctly.

[turboplanner]

For those who haven't heard of a Jab wheelbarrowing or veering off the strip, These two current instances took all of two minutes to find.

RAA takes the time to collate short reports on all incidents and accidents for each month, and make them readily available on the Website to help other pilots who may not be aware of the risks.

These are not ATSB standard, and don't need to be to drive home critical lessons.

 

30/10/21 Jabiru J239C

.......rounded out well but landed flat, bounced off the nose wheel, ballooned, bounced off the nose wheel a second time, ballooned again, bounced off the nose wheel heavily a third time and did a go round ....................propellor tip squared off, nose wheel spat damaged.

 

29/11/21 Jabiru J160 - C

The aircraft touched down on a private strip then veered suddenly to the left........................the aircraft rolled and came to rest inverted.

 

[RFguy]

Certainly the J230 and likely J170 want to takeoff 20 knots below the speciifed T.O.S.S.  so you actively need to make some decisions there as pitching up early will simply result in more runway used as the drag increases with AOA premature- but needs to be teamed with weight off the nosehweel.  

 

But !!! weight coming off  the nosewheel at minimum flying speed (but not T.O.S.S) with stick neutral   is usually self fullfilling and orderly   IF the correct elevator  trim has been selected prior to roll. 

 

I've had one situation on landing (Jabiru) where after landing and in the rolling,. at a time with relatively little experience on type, my feet were asleep and resulting in some 'corrective action' to get it back straight onto the centreline... my ppl pax remarked that probably would have resulted in a ground loop in a tailwheel. 

 

However, on landing or TO   I've never experienced any tendency to wheelbarrow  .

and I've never noticed any misbehaviour on takeoff , since you have to be on the pedals on TO like a tiger to keep it straight , and that usually ensures no issues

 

Edited December 30, 2021 by RFguy

[turboplanner]

27 minutes ago, RFguy said:

Certainly the J230 and likely J170 want to takeoff 20 knots below the speciifed T.O.S.S.  so you actively need to make some decisions there as pitching up early will simply result in more runway used as the drag increases with AOA premature- but needs to be teamed with weight off the nosehweel.  

 

But !!! weight coming off  the nosewheel at minimum flying speed (but not T.O.S.S) with stick neutral   is usually self fullfilling and orderly   IF the correct elevator  trim has been selected prior to roll. 

 

I've had one situation on landing (Jabiru) where after landing and in the rolling,. at a time with relatively little experience on type, my feet were asleep and resulting in some 'corrective action' to get it back straight onto the centreline... my ppl pax remarked that probably would have resulted in a ground loop in a tailwheel. 

 

However, on landing or TO   I've never experienced any tendency to wheelbarrow  .

and I've never noticed any misbehaviour on takeoff , since you have to be on the pedals on TO like a tiger to keep it straight , and that usually ensures no issues

 

If you come in on Final using Throttle for rate of descent and elevators for speed, you will be holding the stick back slightly and coming in with a nose up attitude including after the round out, so you will always be landing on the mains, and if, when the mains touch down you have the stick right back and leave it there the nose wheel will settle as the aircraft slows and will settle further down the runway at a speed slower than stall, so it gets an easy life and you are unlikely ever to wheelbarrow becaise you have the nose wheel in the air when you touch down. HOWEVER, and it's hard to believe, there are some instructors out there who teach the point and shoot method, using elevators to point the nose at the runway and throttle to control speed. And if the aircraft comes in with the nose pointing at the runway, guess which wheel is likely to hit first unless the student remembers to change tactics.

 

There shouldn't be issues taking off since the prop is pulling you straight and you just have to apply steady rudder to counter the initial engine torque for a while. Your feet will adjust this subconsciously as you go on, so you'll be less like a tiger; there's no fixed point when this happens; we're all different, but one day you'll suddenly realise your feet have been working the pedals by themselves.

[facthunter]

If you operate from sealed strips it's less likely. Any drag, soft ground or grass, forces weight onto the nosewheel when you open up the throttle. it's about prevention. How the plane is loaded also affects  how it behaves in this situation.  With full power the rudder (and elevator) is very effective so there is no issue if you use the right technique. The Jab wheels are not very large..Nev

[RFguy]

High crosswind (desire for nose on ground early to gain authority ) and bad surface (desire to keep nosewheel light)  are opposing requirements and I have not practiced nor encountered those requirements yet. 

any comments ?

 

Agree Turbs, and finals and landing in the J230 without anything much in the rear  is usually done with full back trim.  at least in my bird... landing and flare is  full stick back with two pax. 

It would take a bit weight in the back (due to wing posiiton is over the back) to change that.  stick is held back until nose lowers on its own as airspeed decays once mains are down. at least in benign  (nil Xwind ) condix

 

 

 

 

 

[facthunter]

It's pretty normal on a 230 to run out of back trim as you slow down.  On X wind Take offs, try to make a clean break on lift off. IF you resettle the plane will already be drifting sideways.  Nev

[kgwilson]

I did my RA conversion in a J170 & J230 & had no knowledge of any propensity to wheelbarow, lose directional control or specifically keeping the weight off the nosewheel. Keeping the weight off the nosewheel is standard for any tricycle aircraft in my book and wheelbarrowing is just poor landing technique. I had no issues and when I did the conversion the winds were fairy strong and crosswind at times. Use the rudder, it is not there for show.

Edited December 30, 2021 by kgwilson

[Thruster88]

1 hour ago, RFguy said:

High crosswind (desire for nose on ground early to gain authority ) and bad surface (desire to keep nosewheel light)  are opposing requirements and I have not practiced nor encountered those requirements yet. 

any comments ?

 

 

 

 

 

The RV series and many others have castoring nose wheels so you dont get any nose wheel authority in such aircraft, that is what the rudder is for as Kevin has said. 

 

There has been at least 6 fairly serious accidents involving the runway for RAAus aircraft in December 2021, not sure how we fix this. Got to be bad for insurance premiums.