facthunter Posted January 15, 2022 Share Posted January 15, 2022 It's on the wane only because of the toxicity of lead and that's fair enough too if the concentration in the area is high enough to be a problem. I agree that avgas is not for the Rotax as it can cause compression loss. I've seen that and it came good after returning to Mogas in both cases..but that is not assured. There's a reason for that .The Rotax 9 series runs too cool on the valve seats for the lead to Lubricate the seats and it instead forms a build up and some of it can detach and poor valve seating results. The makers of aero engines recommend what fuel (and oils) to use and I don't depart from that. I've put plenty of time into research on fuels and oils and working on engines and don't rely on websites that say the makers know nothing and aero engine oil is 'Hinge" oil. I think you run a pretty good ship from your posts but I consider Motors that recommend 100 LL use it still something else replaces it that is approved.. Nev. . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skippydiesel Posted January 15, 2022 Share Posted January 15, 2022 KGW Just one point on "shelf life" of 98 RON - the reserch has consistently shown that 98 is good for at least 6 months IN A SEALED CONTAINER filled to 75 % capacity or above . Also a good dollop of fresh 98, added to your possibly stale fuel (in tank) will restore almost all the good attributes lost due to volatilisation. So instead of filling your tank, when you return from a days flying, consider doing so just befor you fly next. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmccarthy Posted January 15, 2022 Share Posted January 15, 2022 I ran 250 hours on a Rotax 912 with unleaded, and occasional Avagas, or mixtures. I run my Lycoming O360 on avgas with occasional unleaded or mixtures. Neither have given any problems. I use Mr Funnel with Jerry can fuel. The O360 has an STC for unleaded. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgwilson Posted January 15, 2022 Share Posted January 15, 2022 11 hours ago, skippydiesel said: KGW Just one point on "shelf life" of 98 RON - the reserch has consistently shown that 98 is good for at least 6 months IN A SEALED CONTAINER filled to 75 % capacity or above . Also a good dollop of fresh 98, added to your possibly stale fuel (in tank) will restore almost all the good attributes lost due to volatilisation. So instead of filling your tank, when you return from a days flying, consider doing so just befor you fly next. I never refill until I am ready to fly again. If you do not give the aromatics a chance to evaporate then they won't. Partly filled plastic jerrycans will blow up like a balloon if left around for weeks in hot weather. Fill them right up & there is little expansion. My 20 litre plastic jerrycans hold 24 litres to the brim & that's how I fill and store them. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted January 15, 2022 Share Posted January 15, 2022 14 hours ago, facthunter said: The makers of aero engines recommend what fuel (and oils) to use and I don't depart from that. Running mogas doesn't necessarily depart from the recommendations of the manufacturer. There are a number of older and newer engines from Lycoming which run fine on Mogas the link below provides a from the horse's mouth view. https://www.lycoming.com/sites/default/files/SI1070AB Specified Fuels.pdf Note that Mogas is included. From a technical point of view the majority of GA aircraft will run on Mogas without an issue. There are some higher compression and turbocharged aircraft which currently require Avgas however these aircraft are in the minority. Essentially the GA industry has been subsidizing those aircraft for decades at enormous cost. If there is a significant swing towards using mogas the whole economics of the avgas industry will collapse. The problems with all of the replacement AVgas fuels is that they're more expensive and consumers don't want that. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted January 15, 2022 Share Posted January 15, 2022 If your motor is OK for Mogas you still have cut your detonation and vapourisation margins. The Octane figures for Mogas and Avgas have a different base, usiually about 5 points LOWER for Mogas and they give two figures for lean and rich'. Permitted to use doesn't mean equal performance. They are nowhere near equal in quality control either. Aviation fuels have a release note.. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RFguy Posted January 16, 2022 Share Posted January 16, 2022 (edited) I think I can summarize : 1) Vapour lock should not be an issue if the aircraft airframe is serious about MOGAS and has a FUEL RETURN to ensure the fuel is getting circulated around. Most of them. 2) AVGAS is fine in rotax with fuel additive (Decalin etc) and more frequent oil changes 3) 98 has a higher volume of volatiles and doesnt have the same shelf life in an unsealed tank . should be better than 95 when is new. 4) Degree of ethanol compatiiblity with fuel system components varies amongst airframes. Edited January 16, 2022 by RFguy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacesailor Posted January 16, 2022 Share Posted January 16, 2022 RFguy Number four ETHANOL ! If leaving any engine for extended periods, the ethanol will separate from it,s parent chemical, petrol or diesel, Not good at all, l need to know how to over come this problem, with my car Unused for nearly a year now. Could be Next year these unused vehicles, may explode the first time driveing . My oil is two years out of date, but no kilometers driven, do l change the oil per p o h,. ( 12 month ). spacesailor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skippydiesel Posted January 16, 2022 Share Posted January 16, 2022 3 hours ago, spacesailor said: RFguy Number four ETHANOL ! If leaving any engine for extended periods, the ethanol will separate from it,s parent chemical, petrol or diesel, Not good at all, l need to know how to over come this problem, with my car Unused for nearly a year now. Could be Next year these unused vehicles, may explode the first time driveing . My oil is two years out of date, but no kilometers driven, do l change the oil per p o h,. ( 12 month ). spacesailor Check engine/filters for nesting creatures & remove, charge or replace battery - inflate tyres to correct pressure (consider replacement ASAP) - drain as much old fuel as you can - refill with fresh - start engine - drive to get engine up to even running temperature (minimum 20 minutes longer better) - drain engine oil and replace with fresh - also replace break fluid at earliest opportunity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted January 16, 2022 Share Posted January 16, 2022 The buy a new engine, transmission and diff and install. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacesailor Posted January 16, 2022 Share Posted January 16, 2022 That ! Replace the vehicle when the pandemic is over. Is my thinking! . Logbook records : 15/2/21 last driven. Previously : 12/ 6/ 20. After fitting a new battery. Milage 12/6/20 : 218,638 Now, 219,675 spacesailor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted January 16, 2022 Share Posted January 16, 2022 RFguy I know you like to do theoretical sums, so I'd recommend you think about my deadly serious post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skippydiesel Posted January 16, 2022 Share Posted January 16, 2022 3 hours ago, turboplanner said: RFguy I know you like to do theoretical sums, so I'd recommend you think about my deadly serious post. To what/which post are you referring? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
APenNameAndThatA Posted January 17, 2022 Share Posted January 17, 2022 (edited) You can get jerry cans that you tip upside down, and the weight of the fuel opens the tap. Very little spilling. This one is called a Tough Jug. I can’t vouch for the quality. I was looking for a pic because people were mentioning jerry cans and electric pumps. This is an alternative to a normal jerry can. One advantage of this is that the aircraft supports the weight of the jerry can while the fuel flows. Edited January 17, 2022 by APenNameAndThatA 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walrus Posted January 17, 2022 Share Posted January 17, 2022 I have finally formed a plan for refuelling my high wing aircraft: 1. Insert AN6 dry break socket in fuel line between tank and shutoff valve. 2. Bosch 044 electric pump or equivalent with suitable fuel hose attached. 3 Dry break plugs on either end of hoses, also a 100 micron or less filter with dry break coupling. ‘’To refuel - insert suction end with filter into jerry can and pump. ‘’To defuel reverse direction of hoses and suck. ‘’Pump can be powered either from jumper pack or aircraft battery. No mess, reduced fuel spillage opportunities. I have big vents on the tanks that will handle an overfilling incident. No step ladders, climbing, balancing, funnels, etc. What is not to like? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RFguy Posted January 17, 2022 Share Posted January 17, 2022 (edited) sounds great. Ensure that the power connectors and/or pump power switches are intrinsically safe (to avoid explosion) (or the switches/connectors can be nowhere near vapour). something like this walrus ? https://www.efisolutions.com.au/straight-aluminium-quick-release-dry-break-an6 Edited January 17, 2022 by RFguy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walrus Posted January 18, 2022 Share Posted January 18, 2022 RF, yes, something like that but with an important addition......... Where I need to place the fitting in the fuel line, I cannot absolutely guarantee that there will never be negative pressure (ie a little vacuum) in the line. Its a gravity feed to the fuel pumps but they are EFI pumps and they suck, if you know what I mean. I have yet to find a dry break coupling that will guarantee that it remains leak proof under vacuum. As you can guess, I don't want any air to leak into the fuel system ever! The solution, I think, is a mini ball valve behind the dry break fitting that remains closed unless the fitting is in use. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skippydiesel Posted January 18, 2022 Share Posted January 18, 2022 On 18/01/2022 at 7:09 AM, walrus said: I have finally formed a plan for refuelling my high wing aircraft: 1. Insert AN6 dry break socket in fuel line between tank and shutoff valve. 2. Bosch 044 electric pump or equivalent with suitable fuel hose attached. 3 Dry break plugs on either end of hoses, also a 100 micron or less filter with dry break coupling. ‘’To refuel - insert suction end with filter into jerry can and pump. ‘’To defuel reverse direction of hoses and suck. ‘’Pump can be powered either from jumper pack or aircraft battery. No mess, reduced fuel spillage opportunities. I have big vents on the tanks that will handle an overfilling incident. No step ladders, climbing, balancing, funnels, etc. What is not to like? Sounds great. Questions/thoughts All those couplings must cost a bit With all those connections, the potential for a fuel leak has risen significantly The pump cost $200-400 is way over the top for an on ground transfer pump - get a Chines knock off for under $100 The flow rate of the pump isn't bad - you will take about 4 minutes to deliver 20L (under ideal conditions) What sort of pump is the Bosh? - if its centrifugal its ability to self prime will be marginal and any "head" will have a dramatic impact on flow rate You may want to think twice about the filter - it will cause a significant restriction, slowing fuel delivery If refuelling from a drum/can, a rigid tube/spike on one end of the pump is the safest and easiest way to go. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skippydiesel Posted January 18, 2022 Share Posted January 18, 2022 (edited) On 17/01/2022 at 10:57 PM, APenNameAndThatA said: You can get jerry cans that you tip upside down, and the weight of the fuel opens the tap. Very little spilling. This one is called a Tough Jug. I can’t vouch for the quality. I was looking for a pic because people were mentioning jerry cans and electric pumps. This is an alternative to a normal jerry can. One advantage of this is that the aircraft supports the weight of the jerry can while the fuel flows. Certainly reduces the chance of spillage. At near $100 you could have an electric pump. Resembles the 10L 2/ can I have for our chainsaws etc If only 10L its going to take a lot of cans to do the job If 20L still have the problem of lifting (especially for high wings) Not so good on (near) vertical fill points Wouldn't want to carry fuel in the aircraft - likely to vent at altitude and may not be 100% spill proof if falls over Edited January 18, 2022 by skippydiesel 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfly Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 (edited) So far, I've found that this EF-01A transfer pump ($80 from easyflow) works well and has simplified the fuelling process. But I still prefer lifting 10L jerry's rather than 20L ones up onto the turtle deck. (this small battery powered pump is not designed to push fuel from ground level up to wing tank height) Anyway the chap at Easyflow is good to talk to and to do business with. EasyFlo Pumps 0408336816 04083368160408336816 https://easyflo.com.au/ (Click on this image for higher rez or see the pdf below: FUEL TRANSFER PUMP.pdf Edited January 19, 2022 by Garfly 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skippydiesel Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 No offence Garfly but these sort of "pumps" are, in reality, not so much better than a syphon. For similar cash outlay, you can have a petrol rated, positive displacement, 12v, fuel transfer pump that will easily deliver 20 L in about 3 minutes, from the can on the ground, even up to high wing tanks. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfly Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 That may be a better solution (any links, suggestions?) but I still like this pump for easily moving fuel around minus a 12V source. I'd be concerned fuelling up from ships power that I'd deplete the battery. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PommyRick Posted January 19, 2022 Author Share Posted January 19, 2022 Would something like this work? https://www.scintex.com.au/products/portable-fuel-tank-75l?variant=5563747794973¤cy=AUD&utm_medium=product_sync&utm_source=google&utm_content=sag_organic&utm_campaign=sag_organic&gclid=CjwKCAiA55mPBhBOEiwANmzoQgLLlE1U_nJNRmwjMsSI1Y7Axl8ZwomooQX8PHZ_NjRpj17A2_f7MBoCgSoQAvD_BwE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onetrack Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 That's the most expensive poly jerrycan and hand pump I've ever seen! Are they gold-plated and built from aerospace materials? I think Skippys on the right track, a standard petrol engine, electric fuel pump with a simple pump wiring arrangement (that has to be explosion-proof, of course) is a better way to go. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skippydiesel Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 1 hour ago, Garfly said: That may be a better solution (any links, suggestions?) but I still like this pump for easily moving fuel around minus a 12V source. I'd be concerned fuelling up from ships power that I'd deplete the battery. Well I have been using my Holly (Chines knock off) for about 6 years now. Anderson plug Under panel,direct to "ship" battery, pump up to 70L in one filling, and so far not a problem. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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