Oil Hose/Rotax 912

[onetrack]

I don't think there's any fear of getting "under spec" components, the way that Skippy chases down all the precise specifications, to ensure that they're not under-specc'ed.

But the potential problem that I see with using other than a "genuine" hose, is in the attachment method/fittings for the hose. "Non-genuine" hoses often specify the manufacturers specific fittings for their hose - such as machine-clamped, crimped fittings with threaded ends. Some of these "non-genuine" hoses may not be amenable to utilising hose clamps, if that is what the oil cooler utilises.

 

I must agree 100% with Skippy on the price-gouging for replacement parts. I know many people care little about what a part or component costs, as long as they can get it now. 

I have spent almost all of the last 55 years (apart from military service), chasing down better prices for parts and components. I don't have a problem with a high price for a part or component, if it contains exotic engineering and materials.

 

But 95% of parts and components are over-priced, guaranteed to ensure a minimum of 100% profit margin, and in some cases, up to 500% profit margin. The situation has only worsened with the rush to manufacturing in China.

Even "Brand name" American manufacturers who proudly fly the Stars and Stripes on their product boxes, obviously see no problem with manufacturing their products in China - and charging the same price, as if the item was manufactured in the U.S.

 

It may be admirable supporting a business who you believe needs support, and who gives you good support. But when the markup on parts and components becomes an eye watering difference, as compared to other suppliers, you just have to question how much you're being shafted, all in the name of "good business support".

One of the things I have found after 55 yrs in business, is that businesses come and go like the wind - even large ones, who are highly susceptible to takeovers and buyouts - and the business you spent many tens of thousands of dollars supporting, suddenly disappears in a bankruptcy caused by factors beyond the particular businesses control - or the manager ran off with the owners wife, and the owner "lost it" - or some "trusted" employee scammed the owner with massive internal theft, resulting in the business going down the drain in weeks, like a tub of dishwater.

 

The sheer beauty of our instant communication, online, internet age, is that now we can compare prices online in seconds, with many businesses. If a business fails to show prices, and insists you call them to find out the price, you be assured they're charging exorbitant prices that they have to try to justify, by "talking you around", or by finding out what you're willing to pay - or if they quickly realise you have a bulging wallet, that they feel the need to unburden you from.

[skippydiesel]

1 hour ago, Blueadventures said:

I use the oil hose from floods are what ever the price is at the time.  I know it will at least do the job.  Also I believe it is good to support the company so they remain in business; plus any time I have a tech question or seek advice they know me as a regular customer and have always been helpful to me.  Just my way of living. Cheers.

 

Again a very fair comment - Where the part is a Rotax part OR specifications are not available, I agree completely HOWEVER where B Flood is only supplying something (in this case oil hose) that can just as easily be sourced from many other suppliers, they should be a tad more competitive than + 500%

[skippydiesel]

3 hours ago, aro said:

The problem with the oil hoses is that they attach to parts that are not necessarily Rotax provided e.g. the oil cooler. Are the Rotax hoses compatible with all oil cooler fittings?

Thankfully all my fittings measure 12.?mm so the old 0.5' will fit, as will 12 mmm - I doubt 13 mm.

[aro]

 

 

20 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

Thankfully all my fittings measure 12.?mm so the old 0.5' will fit, as will 12 mmm - I doubt 13 mm.

The fittings supplied with my oil cooler were push-lok, so I make sure that the hose I use specifies that it is compatible. Maybe any hose is compatible with those fittings - I don't know.

[aro]

21 hours ago, onetrack said:

I don't think there's any fear of getting "under spec" components, the way that Skippy chases down all the precise specifications, to ensure that they're not under-specc'ed.

As long as you find the right specifications. Engine oil pressure is not relevant - the Rotax specification is negative 500mb (7.25 PSI) at 150C without collapse.

[skippydiesel]

My Findings;

 

Oil Hose for Rotax.docx

 

All the hose specifications listed equal or exceed the Conti-M4M -2, except for bend radius

 

The Eaton Aeroquip from Berendsen, will not be available until "mid April"

 

There was some ambiguity in the Gates 27066 specifications

 

For my money the Gates 8G3H from Hydraulink is the best of the available offerings. Why;

 

• Its availability now in Australia
• Reputable manufacturer/supplier (I have used Gates fuel & coolant hoses for over 20 years)
• Meets/exceeds Rotax/Continentals specification's in all but bend radius 
• Fair price (see post below)

Edited January 25, 2022 by skippydiesel

[skippydiesel]

Hydraulink have offered me a deal on 48. 5 m of Gates 8G3H - the price would come down to about $26/m  (without delivery). It would be a big outlay for me on my own but if there are Forum members, who would like to participate/benefit in a group purchase please PM me ASAP. 

 

I think minimum purchase would have to be 2m (increments of 2m) -  I will need about 23 buyers (or less if you get 4m or more).

 

Let me know ASAP

[onetrack]

Skippy, that's not too bad a price, but having to buy that length of hose seems a bit extreme, and it will take you years to get your investment back. And the problem is rubber hose deteriorates just sitting around, even with good storage conditions.

I'm sure someone will sell you a shorter length, even if it does come out at a higher cost per metre. Try this bloke in the link below, he's located at Caboolture, but I'd have to guess he'd more than likely be helpful.

 

https://www.industrysearch.com.au/australian-hose-fittings/s/9767

 

EDIT - After carrying out more research on the above company, it appears the Industry Search site information is obsolete. Australian Hose Fittings changed their name to Taipan Hydraulic Hose Systems in 2017, and the parent company does not sell hose or fittings directly to owners or operators - but they have a range of distributors, and there's likely to be one in your area.

Taipan sell many of the major brands of hose and fittings, and they list Gates as a hose brand they supply.

 

https://taipan.com.au/find-a-stockist/

 

Edited January 25, 2022 by onetrack

[skippydiesel]

!T the meter rate is $33.74 - quite acceptably to me.

 

If the deal, below, falls through, I will just get 4 m (2 for now 2 for next hose change).

 

The $$26/m is for 48.5m

[Blueadventures]

2 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

!T the meter rate is $33.74 - quite acceptably to me.

 

If the deal, below, falls through, I will just get 4 m (2 for now 2 for next hose change).

 

The $$26/m is for 48.5m

Skippy with all due respects you are prepared to cut , package and delivery to post 23 packages to save $26-???   Poor efficiency to me, I'd be looking at washing the neighbours ute or tractor for that amount and then have enough to pay the $33.74/m.  Just the way I live on the planet.  Cheers.

[skippydiesel]

1 hour ago, Blueadventures said:

Skippy with all due respects you are prepared to cut , package and delivery to post 23 packages to save $26-???   Poor efficiency to me, I'd be looking at washing the neighbours ute or tractor for that amount and then have enough to pay the $33.74/m.  Just the way I live on the planet.  Cheers.

I am happy to provide a service to any Forum members. From my perspective, sharing knowledge/experience/opinion/good luck is what the Forum should be about  Despite my interest in getting the best deal, I am not all about money/profit.

 

FYI the saving is  more like $86/m, on the Flood price (acceptable result?)

 

[skippydiesel]

True its only been a day or so and I am overwhelmed by the rush (not) of Rotax 9 owners wanting to purchase,good quality, complaint, oil hose at a great price/m. So much so that I think it might just be best if I odder the few metres I want for myself and give up on trying to help my fellow aviators. Such is life!

Edited January 26, 2022 by skippydiesel

[skippydiesel]

On 25/01/2022 at 12:14 PM, skippydiesel said:

My Findings;

 

Oil Hose for Rotax.docx 17.84 kB · 10 downloads

 

All the hose specifications listed equal or exceed the Conti-M4M -2, except for bend radius

 

The Eaton Aeroquip from Berendsen, will not be available until "mid April"

 

There was some ambiguity in the Gates 27066 specifications

 

For my money the Gates 8G3H -8  from Hydraulink is the best of the available offerings. Why;

 

• Its availability now in Australia
• Reputable manufacturer/supplier (I have used Gates fuel & coolant hoses for over 20 years)
• Meets/exceeds Rotax/Continentals specification's in all but bend radius 
• Fair price (see post below)

Up  date - I have purchased  Gates  GTH - 8 hose from Hydraulink. My intention was to purchase the Gates G3H-8 hose, however on rereading the specifications, I realised the GTH-8 meets all the Rotax specifications, is lighter, has a slightly better bend radius and smaller OD than than G3H-8.

[spitfire]

Skippy, you are a gentleman, many thanks for all your research and tabling the contents for mugs like me. It is appreciated…

 

[skippydiesel]

Your welcome.

 

I am a passionate supporter of this and a couple of other similar (topic) Forums.

 

I believe their merit is in being helpful to fellow aviators, by giving opinion/experience , technical/practical advice, and sharing beneficial information (such as cheaper oil hose).

 

In my naivety, I am surprised that very few Forum members take up my offers of sharing in the benefits of my reserch and good luck - such is life.

[spitfire]

Skippy, if I could ask you a question, do you use Oeticker clamps for securing the hoses , the EAA hints for home builders thinks they are a good idea?

[skippydiesel]

1 hour ago, spitfire said:

Skippy, if I could ask you a question, do you use Oeticker clamps for securing the hoses , the EAA hints for home builders thinks they are a good idea?

No. If I understand correctly what Oeticker clamps are - one time use requiring a special applicator/clamp. practically, there is nothing wrong with this style of clamp, other than additional expense. They are neither better or worse than the alternatives except when emergency field repairs are required - I cant see the point.

 

My preference is for reusable fuel injector style clamps, of which there are at least two types (possibly more). What they have in common is  360 degree even pressure and are designed so as not to damage the hose (usually by having an extended inner"sleeve/tongue and smooth/rolled edges. Larger sizes(above 20 mm) can be difficult to find. Check out hose and hose clamp web sites for their offerings. 

 

The main things to understand with push on hoses & clamps is;

• First the hose must be well matched to the spigot - hose ID must match spigot OD. There is usually enough elasticity in a slightly small ID hose to slip over the spigot, with the aid of a smear of silicon grease. Never be tempted to use a slightly large ID hose - it will leak and may even become detached.
• Hoses should always be of sufficient length to accommodate engine movement (especially important with Rotax 9 engines)
• Depending on spigot design the clamp should be placed close to but not on, the collar. The clamps main purpose is retention of the hose (not to make it leak proof). In practice this means modest, non damaging, clamping pressure.
• When I see very tight clamps I suspect 1. poorly matched hose to spigot 2. hose damaged due to repeated removal/replacement 3. old hose gone hard, should have been replaced 4. low quality, incorrect type of hose 5. use of "barbed plumbing" type spigot instead of automotive.
• Shield hoses from extreme heat - this can be targeted (where needed)  ie shielding the whole length may look good but just adds weight & cost

[spitfire]

Ok, so if the larger sizes are difficult to find, do you use screw  clamps on these? As found in automobile apps?

[skippydiesel]

4 hours ago, spitfire said:

Ok, so if the larger sizes are difficult to find, do you use screw  clamps on these? As found in automobile apps?

Yes but choose carefully - if you go on the Tridon web site https://www.tridon.com.au/products/Tridon/35/480/hose-clamps you will find a huge range of hose clamps (there are other suppliers, so do the research).

 

On the Tridon site I would focus on; EFI SERIES - EXTENDED TANG MICRO, NA Series - Nut & Bolt Clamp,  either for fuel, oil & smaller coolant hoses. MP or SMP for your 25mm/1" radiator hoses.

 

Do not purchase slotted worm drive clamps for any application.

 

For best pricing, in the smaller sizes (fuel/oil/coolant) purchase  by the box, then just what you need for the larger 25 mm radiator hose.

 

Norma (below) do spring clamps, as supplied with new Rotax engines and most modern cars - you will need a pair of applicator pliers.

 

You could also try;

https://www.gatesaustralia.com.au/~/media/files/gates-au/automotive/catalogues/gates-clamp-catalogue-aus-nz-2019.pdf - great information but only limited umber of products readily available in Australia

https://www.normagroup.com/norma/en/products/ - more good info

https://www.pirtek.com.au/-/media/feature/products/sect-m-clamps-rev-c.pdf - as above

https://www.anzor.com.au/stainless-hose-clips

https://www.aimsindustrial.com.au/hose-ducting-fittings/hose-clamps/

[spitfire]

Hi Skippy

thats brilliant, many thanks, 
Mike

 

[skippydiesel]

All the best

[RFguy]

moved

 

 

 

 

Edited October 12, 2022 by RFguy

[RFguy]

hose spec is -7 psi at 150C, so that hose is fine.

max neg is -4.4psi at full smoke. I think there are a few bad installs around the place with  radiators with too much pressure drop, or hoses too long/ of insufficient diameter  (causing pressure drop) on the suction side.  (min spec 10mm, suggest 12mm)