Another LOC on final for a forced landing [06/19 USA]

[turboplanner]

8 hours ago, Jabiru7252 said:

The Jabiru J170 with its big wing flies very nice with the power back to idle. The fact that the J170 wants to keep flying makes it harder to land in a small paddock when the engine stops.

I was consistently landing and departing the runway in 418 metres in a pre-AD J170. This incident was around 1200 metres from the start of the runway, so I think different issues in play.

[Mike Gearon]

Turbo, reading that makes me think everyone should start in gliders. It’s always engine out landings and if we came in under 60kn we’d get a going over from the CFI. Have to retain aircraft energy for sudden changes in the surrounding air. I think particularly so in Phoenix where I was flying with all that sun energy changing conditions throughout the day.

 

I’ve pasted in below your comments re wind shear. Expect I’ll get mine one day and I need to add full power in sudden drop to muscle memory. I’ll look up the rec flier thread on wind shear. I’d rather learn it here than during the event. I expect you’re dropping in the parcel of air with the sight picture changing and a desire to pull up to retain the original horizon and you’d either hold steady elevator or nose down slightly same as a glider in descending air. 
 

CFI yelling you’ve killed us. I’ve been there. Permanently burned in image of us skimming the mangroves as we didn’t do the impossible turn and prepared a landing in the black mud. Invaluable! 
 

However, the biggest factor that makes engine out landing practice deadly is wind shear. If you've experienced it you'll know exactly what I'm about to say; if you haven't, you'll have many different thoughts on your mind right now including what exactly wind shear is (we have a thread on this from about ten years ago covering the span of these thoughts.

 

Over many years I've experienced two, both times with instructors on board, both on late final.

 

In the first one, I adjusted throttle when I noticed the initial sink, and the Instructor slammed on full throttle as we started to drop like a rock. Left alone, even after years of flying, I would have killed us, but through his action we overcame the shear and cleared the ground.

 

On the second one I slammed on full throttle as I felt the drop.....and beat the Instructor, the top gun who was yelling "we're gonna die" in the forced landing I mentioned before. Nothing like past experience.

 

If you give away this redundancy by practicing engine-out landings, you'd most likely be dead in either of those cases.

[turboplanner]

2 hours ago, turboplanner said:

I was consistently landing and departing the runway in 418 metres in a pre-AD J170. This incident was around 1200 metres from the start of the runway, so I think different issues in play.

Please disregard this post after Jabiru 7252s post. Had a bit of brain fade and thought I was talking about the Goowla incident.

[Blueadventures]

3 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

Please disregard this post after Jabiru 7252s post. Had a bit of brain fade and thought I was talking about the Goowla incident.

Ask mod to delete. Cheers

[Old Koreelah]

This discussion might save a life. Despite all my training. I’ve become less wary of wind sheer, to the extent that i recently took great pride in getting my little plane stopped before the end of the tar at the start of our strip- that’s 180m. 

 

Keeping an eye on the sock might give warning of wind sheer, but a sudden downdraught would have put me into the fence.

 

In future my aiming point will be the first or second gable- 180m further along. 

[turboplanner]

58 minutes ago, Old Koreelah said:

This discussion might save a life. Despite all my training. I’ve become less wary of wind sheer, to the extent that i recently took great pride in getting my little plane stopped before the end of the tar at the start of our strip- that’s 180m. 

 

Keeping an eye on the sock might give warning of wind sheer, but a sudden downdraught would have put me into the fence.

 

In future my aiming point will be the first or second gable- 180m further along. 

I suppose it depends on what height the shear is;  My first one where I failed to identify was high, so maybe 250 metres out and I dropped 40 - 50' before the instructor slammed the throttle open. In my case I was going to hit the ground well before the fence.   If I'd aimed 180 m ahead I would have hit the ground before the fence or maybe on the strip, however, you can see by the diagramme that your aiming point adds more redundancy height padding for any sort of wind or engine mishap.

[facthunter]

A "pool" of hot stagnant air over the threshold will reduce lift available quite dramatically.. Density altitude thing.

   Power off approaches and low approach speed don't mix well. IF you have flaps out it's even worse. as surplus power (power over drag) is reduced so you won't accelerate so well. 

 Wind sheer is freestream  say above 100 ft. in   cleared country, minus surface friction effect as you get lower.. Bit like a flowing creek faster in the middle and not much near the bank. This is not of a a very great ORDER. What will be more likely to cause angst is frontal or sea breeze coming through and mechanical   turbulence from adjacent  structures (Hangars and Trees) plus hot day mini thermals (convective) and small twisters.(dust devils  sometimes without the dust to warn you). WHO looks for these things?  Certainly those who have experienced them and hopefully those who are prepared by being more informed. Nev

[turboplanner]

4 hours ago, facthunter said:

What will be more likely to cause angst is frontal or sea breeze coming through and mechanical   turbulence from adjacent  structures (Hangars and Trees) plus hot day mini thermals (convective) and small twisters.(dust devils  sometimes without the dust to warn you). WHO looks for these things?  Certainly those who have experienced them and hopefully those who are prepared by being more informed. Nev

These aren't wind shear so how about giving us a run down on each - where they may be encountered, how to identify them and how to deal with them?

[Thruster88]

2 hours ago, turboplanner said:

These aren't wind shear so how about giving us a run down on each - where they may be encountered, how to identify them and how to deal with them?

I think real pilots have to be ready for what ever mother nature may throw at them. Fly the correct approach speed, adjust for sink or not with power, hit the spot on the centre line and keep it straight. Not that difficult if you have the understanding.