CASA ....Check this ...what a KlusterF**

[rgmwa]

Apart from medicals, I've had very little interaction with CASA (fortunately).  However, although the organisation's management is roundly maligned and probably deservedly so for its culture, legalistic attitude and heavy handedness, I will say that our local CASA guy who runs the regular safety lectures - my only other direct contact with CASA - is excellent.  Very helpful and well informed, and I'm sure there are many others in the organisation like him who have a real interest in aviation and are doing a good job. 

[Kieran17]

4 hours ago, Garfly said:

https://vfrg.casa.gov.au/emergency-procedures/mercy-flights/

Mercy flight declaration AIP ENR 1.1

When an urgent medical, flood or fire relief or evacuation flight is proposed in order to retrieve a person from grave and imminent danger and failure to do so is likely to result in loss of life or serious or permanent disability and the flight will involve irregular operations, a mercy flight must be declared.

A mercy flight must only be declared by the pilot in command and the factors/risks that the pilot in command must consider in the declaration, commencement and continuation of the flight are detailed in AIP ENR 1.1.

 

This is still up on the CASA website.  Can you give more details about this provision being removed, Keiran?

That section of website is out of date, not helpful that outdated information is still accessible, and if you google "mercy flight' it still directs to incorrect information on the CASA site. That page listed was last updated in February last year. In the update change summary it notes that this section of the website was supposed to be switched off after the Dec 2nd 2021 AIRAC.   

The new version of VFRG can be downloaded here https://www.casa.gov.au/search-centre/visual-flight-rules-guide

The current and next versions of the AIP suite of docs can be downloaded here https://www.airservicesaustralia.com/aip/aip.asp

 

The short version for the removal was they came to realise that "there is no regulatory basis for mercy flights' so it has been (disappointingly quietly) removed for the AIP docs. The only option left in a case that a mercy flight would have covered is to declare an emergency. RFDS pilot flying beyond flight and duty time limits to get their pax to hospital, declare a mayday. Landing five minutes after last light so your snake bitten pax can get to a hospital, declare a mayday (side note, in a case like this, tell ATC and we'll help out as best we can, need an ambulance to meet you, we'll arrange it).

 

 

 

Kieran

 

[Kieran17]

Doubled post removed

 

Edited February 16, 2022 by Kieran17
double posted

[Garfly]

 

37 minutes ago, Kieran17 said:

That section of website is out of date, not helpful that outdated information is still accessible, and if you google "mercy flight' it still directs to incorrect information on the CASA site. That page listed was last updated in February last year. In the update change summary it notes that this section of the website was supposed to be switched off after the Dec 2nd 2021 AIRAC.   

The new version of VFRG can be downloaded here https://www.casa.gov.au/search-centre/visual-flight-rules-guide

The current and next versions of the AIP suite of docs can be downloaded here https://www.airservicesaustralia.com/aip/aip.asp

 

The short version for the removal was they came to realise that "there is no regulatory basis for mercy flights' so it has been (disappointingly quietly) removed for the AIP docs. The only option left in a case that a mercy flight would have covered is to declare an emergency. RFDS pilot flying beyond flight and duty time limits to get their pax to hospital, declare a mayday. Landing five minutes after last light so your snake bitten pax can get to a hospital, declare a mayday (side note, in a case like this, tell ATC and we'll help out as best we can, need an ambulance to meet you, we'll arrange it).    Kieran

 

 

 

Thanks for that information, Kieran.  How else are pilots to know?  Too bad you couldn't have been there to advise the senators. That would have been a zinger of a follow-up question. Presumably (one hopes!) Pip Spence PSM was as clueless as the rest of us about the change. (Likewise, the crew of departmental staff with her?!) As a Public Service Medal holder, the least she should do is to correct the record. 

 

Talking of CASA duplicitousness and Mercy Flights, this is a Canberra Times story from last year where, once again, officials insisting on placing the regulatory cart before the horse of reality proved fatal for a father trying to save his drowning child.  So who is to blame?  Who takes the rap?

 

Senators?  Sir Humphrey Appleby?

 

https://www.canberratimes.com.au/story/7334149/mercy-flight-row-builds-after-south-coast-tragedy/

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 16, 2022 by Garfly

[Kieran17]

29 minutes ago, Garfly said:

 

 

 

Thanks for that information, Kieran.  How else are pilots to know?  Too bad you couldn't have been there to advise the senators. That would have been a zinger of a follow-up question. Presumably (one hopes!) Pip Spence PSM was as clueless as the rest of us about the change. (Likewise, the crew of departmental staff with her?!) As a Public Service Medal holder, the least she should do is to correct the record. 

 

Talking of CASA duplicitousness and Mercy Flights, this is a Canberra Times story from last year where, once again, officials insisting on placing the regulatory cart before the horse of reality proved fatal for a father trying to save his drowning child.  So who is to blame?  Who takes the rap?

 

Senators?  Sir Humphrey Appleby?

 

https://www.canberratimes.com.au/story/7334149/mercy-flight-row-builds-after-south-coast-tragedy/

 

 

 

 

 

 

You're welcome. I try to advocate for better change summaries being published at the AIRACs. Broad stroke summaries like this just don't cut it when there are significant changes, particularly when it refers to information removed without detailing what was removed and why, meaning a page by page comparison between versions is needed to keep track.

 

We (country) can do better than this.

 

 

 

Kieran

[Garfly]

Well it's very good to know that if we ever find ourselves needing to bend the regs to save a life then it's no good declaring your mission a 'mercy flight' anymore.

You just need to go straight to "Mayday" ... assuming you can get someone to hear you.  And we need to know that if things do go pear-shaped the senators are not going to be able to help much when those ex-cops come calling.

[Thruster88]

Very hard to know what is actually happening in each case without the details from an independent source. We hear the same type of complaints of harassment from truck drivers and operators. The people who operate trucks or aircraft within the rules seem  to have no problems. Aircraft owner and former truck driver.

[kgwilson]

I have the benefit of having dealt with civil aviation authorities in both NZ and Australia over 45 years and it all boils down to one simple observation. NZ CAA acts as a coach, Australian CASA acts as a policeman.

[Garfly]

17 minutes ago, Thruster88 said:

Very hard to know what is actually happening in each case without the details from an independent source. We hear the same type of complaints of harassment from truck drivers and operators. The people who operate trucks or aircraft within the rules seem  to have no problems. Aircraft owner and former truck driver.

Fair enough.  But I get the feeling that if we saw all relevant reports and letters that've passed over the desk of Senator Susan McDonald, I doubt we'd sleep so soundly. She doesn't seem like the type who'd get that furious over something-nothing.  And in her view she's only seeing the tip of the iceberg due fear of intimidation by 'the authorities'. The fact that that kind of thing is going on in government is totally unacceptable.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 16, 2022 by Garfly

[Thruster88]

1 hour ago, Garfly said:

Fair enough.  But I get the feeling that if we saw all relevant reports and letters that've passed over the desk of Senator Susan McDonald, I doubt we'd sleep so soundly. She doesn't seem like the type who'd get that furious over something-nothing.  And in her view she's only seeing the tip of the iceberg due fear of intimidation by 'the authorities'. The fact that that kind of thing is going on in government is totally unacceptable.

 

 

 

 

 

I would like to see those letters before forming an opinion. Is she an aviation person? Without any experience it would be very difficult to know what the real story is.

Edited February 16, 2022 by Thruster88

[Kyle Communications]

I believe she was or still is a pilot

 

Maybe not but she grew up on a station out at Cloncurry so I suspect she has had a lot to do with aircraft and pilots

 

 

[Flightrite]

That’s two in here on CASA’s side, now that’s very concerning!😂

[Kyle Communications]

Well there is the usual one here..but I didnt pickup on the second one 🙂

 

[kgwilson]

2 hours ago, Thruster88 said:

I would like to see those letters before forming an opinion. Is she an aviation person? Without any experience it would be very difficult to know what the real story is.

More importantly is the CEO of CASA an Aviation person. That is an emphatic No. Pip Spence is a career Public Servant. Notably in establishment of the NBN another complete clusterf@##k. It doesn't make any difference though as previous directors who were Aviation people have not been able to change the culture. I called it toxic, Susan McDonald called it Rotten. What is in the letters has certainly caused a major furore and CASA reverts to its legal position. It doesn't look for solutions only punishment.

 

Remember the Jabiru engine restrictions. There was a senate inquiry into this as well. There were major failures within CASA & at the inquiry they didn't have answers. Nothing has changed. It seemingly has got worse.

 

I think McDonald telling Spence she was doing a great job was a greatest sarcastic remark of the session when she said "You must be because everyone tells me you are"

Edited February 16, 2022 by kgwilson

[skippydiesel]

I have had personal experience of a two people, different times,  being "parachuted in" to  roughly the same mid level bureaucratic position from completely unreacted bureaucracies.

 

Neither had any prior knowledge off or skills in, my departments core business.

 

They were quickly surrounded by the "mafia" who fed them all they needed to know, to further their personal agendas.

 

Perhaps if they had sufficient gumption to search out the people who would give them honest impartial information, they might have made some sort of a meaningful contribution but that's not what happened.

[Geoff_H]

I believe that the problem that we have with CASA is the way it is set up.  For the safety of the airways!  A public servant responsible for anything is a hopeless situation. They will overprotect their backsides without any wish to get meaningful operations.  One situation I know of is with Cri Cri aircraft, lighter than most RAA aircraft but with 2 200cc engines, two foot diameter props puts the engines very close together. In most countries they are regarded as single engine, engine out is very simple, even the designer makes that statement.  CASA has refused to make this allowance.  Why help some people, they just protect their ass. 

[skippydiesel]

4 hours ago, Geoff_H said:

I believe that the problem that we have with CASA is the way it is set up.  For the safety of the airways!  A public servant responsible for anything is a hopeless situation. They will overprotect their backsides without any wish to get meaningful operations.  One situation I know of is with Cri Cri aircraft, lighter than most RAA aircraft but with 2 200cc engines, two foot diameter props puts the engines very close together. In most countries they are regarded as single engine, engine out is very simple, even the designer makes that statement.  CASA has refused to make this allowance.  Why help some people, they just protect their ass. 

Not all public servants my friend.

 

The most likely to have this "attribute" seem to make their way up the promotions ladder, to positions of power & influence. Boat rockers/change agents make little if any headway. The public service has many very good people - they tend not to get to the top of their service. Why? because the separation between politics & the public service has been eroded over time. Those that curry favour/bow to the political master of the day, move up, those most likely to speak the truth stay down - such is life. All Australian suffer. 

 

Until we restore the separation between the public service & politics, give proper protection to whistle blowers, this systemic corruption will continue.

[Thruster88]

Another good article by Paul Bertorellie. It is about the FAA but there may be many similarities with CASA. Who would want to be the CEO?

 

 

 

https://www.avweb.com/insider/faa-admin-who-would-want-this-gig/?MailingID=838&utm_source=ActiveCampaign&utm_medium=email&utm_content=Candy+Bomber+Gail+Halvorsen+Dead+At+101%2C+Joby+eVTOL+Involved+In+Testing+Accident&utm_campaign=Candy+Bomber+Gail+Halvorsen+Dead+At+101%2C+Joby+eVTOL+Involved+In+Testing+Accident+-+Friday%2C+February+18%2C+2022

[Garfly]

3 hours ago, Thruster88 said:

It is about the FAA but there may be many similarities with CASA. Who would want to be the CEO?

True ... this bit from the (US) FLYING article echoes some of the dynamics playing out in the Australian Senate Committee video (original post). 

 

"In a statement, House Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure Chair Peter DeFazio, D-Oregon, thanked Dickson for his service, noting the two did not “see eye to eye.”

 

Source:

https://www.flyingmag.com/faa-administrator-steve-dickson-resigns-cites-family-pressures/

Edited February 18, 2022 by Garfly

[turboplanner]

7 hours ago, Garfly said:

True ... this bit from the (US) FLYING article echoes some of the dynamics playing out in the Australian Senate Committee video (original post). 

 

Most constituents don't look further than their elected officials and expect them to "get things done" which is a euphemism for "do what I want".

The elected officials know that so they will always look for a capsule moment showing them as a person of action. It usually doesn't do any harm; all parties know the press will be writing different stories next week and the Department can get back to normal, but occasionally someone, as in this FAA example has a gutful and leaves, after doing what appears in this case a good job.

 

Interesting that FAA's 45,000 employees represents 13.6 per 100,000 of population against CASA 859 representing 3.4 per 100,000; 4 times the ratio of Australia.

 

While the FAA appears to be almost living with the manufacturers and airlines, Australia's Department of Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development and Communications appears to be experimenting in its safety management in Transport.

 

As we know, CASA is managing prescriptively in GA with its Strict Liability Regulations, but also experimenting with Sport Aviation Self Administering Organisations where CASA took back prescriptive control of the air, and handed over management and safety administration to the SAOs.

 

The automotive industry remains primarily prescriptive, and administered by the States, although there are Commonwealth structures which allow some administrative freedoms (for example you can still design and build your own car).

 

The Commercial Vehicle (Truck) Industry is also operating under several experiments.

The National Heavy Vehicle Regulator has taken over Regulatory, and Compliance & Enforcement from the States, so now for example if you need to carry an over-dimensional load, you have to apply to NHVR in Queensland to take an electricity transformer from Melbourne Port to the Latrobe Valley.

The NHVR now also has the power to approve something non-standard ; the equivalent of an Ultralight vs airliner, under the Performance Based Standards (PBS) scheme, where you send NHVR an engineered thought bubble, and if approved you can carry a heavier load for more profit.

 

You only have to read some of the early posts in this thread to see that not everyone is up with the complexity of what is going on in the Air/Sea/Land Transport Industry today, and some people opt to take self administration in inventive ways. This was happening in the Road Transport Industry, so over-arching the new freedoms, a Naughty Corner was introduced, called Chain of Reponsibility. Where in the past a Driver would be charged with an offence, now, if his supervisor instructs him to do something unsafe, the supervisor is charged, and if a customer demands something unsafe, the customer is charged all the way up to CEOs and Directors.  https://www.eroad.com.au/cor-report/?utm_campaign=EROAD-Compliance_Search_AUS&utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=google&utm_term=chain_of_responsibilityPHRASE&gclid=Cj0KCQiApL2QBhC8ARIsAGMm-KFzUKd3UD1fJNWtMdZ_t0mGNsItIv2SMyynlU6lW5dODIeRKGSHU10aAsU3EALw_wcB

 

 

Remember that the Senate is involved with  all of the Transport legislation by Department of Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development and Communications, and also responsible for the legislation relating to Infrastructure, Regional Development and Communications.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 18, 2022 by turboplanner

[spacesailor]

You can design your own car !.

But

It Will still be according to the government's dictatumm,.

So

Your design or their,s.

Your plane design , IF it complies with THEIR, design parimiters. 

spacesailor

[Garfly]

9 hours ago, turboplanner said:

Most constituents don't look further than their elected officials and expect them to "get things done" which is a euphemism for "do what I want".

The elected officials know that so they will always look for a capsule moment showing them as a person of action. It usually doesn't do any harm; all parties know the press will be writing different stories next week and the Department can get back to normal ...

Yes, well, a certain cynicism towards the machinery of government is definitely called for.  But, "Yes, Minister" like all good comedy, also has its serious side.  It'd be too bad if it had the effect of blunting our sense of indignation in the face of bureaucratic malpractice. Many people are still capable of righteous anger when they hear about agencies bullying individuals unjustly (in this case fellow pilots) even if they don't know them.  And some politicians get genuinely annoyed, too, when they see its effects, up close and personal.  It's not that CASA is a standout case in human history. All organisations with power to punish individuals need to guard against the (natural?) tendency towards systemic cruelty and corruption. History has heaps of warnings: from the Praetorian Guard of ancient Rome to the Stasi of the GDR - and onwards to the present NSW police (back in the news).  And since no organisation is really capable of policing itself, we the people and our reps, and our (serious) media, need to keep an eye on them like hawks.  So I'm not totally cynical about the Senate Committee. At least they're trying to hold the line, even if they appear powerless to effect real and lasting change.

 

9 hours ago, turboplanner said:

Interesting that FAA's 45,000 employees represents 13.6 per 100,000 of population against CASA 859 representing 3.4 per 100,000; 4 times the ratio of Australia.

Statistics can be real tricky. To fairly compare the FAA with CASA doesn't Airservices Australia need to be taken into account? That means 3,500 more to add to your 859, no?  And by my maths that puts Australia at 16.7 per 100,000; better than the US's 13.6, and without a big manufacturing industry to regulate (or not ;- )

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 19, 2022 by Garfly

[facthunter]

They are not understaffed . The ethic of the organisation is inappropriate due  TIME  passing and a "culture" constantly  forming and not having the suitable legislation to go by.in the first place.. The People in the industry who PAY should have More SAY.  Aviation RULES should be in a form normal people can understand not the Language of Lawyers or legislation makers and double checked for lack of clarity or ambiguity. The "Authority" should also be a facilitator and an educator not just the One that Nabs you when something goes wrong. ( In Their View).Audits should relate to consistent & Known Requirements not be reversed at the next Audit by a different Person who sort of has to "find" something wrong to justify his appearance.

   The level of Knowledge of OPS and Maintenance and Piloting should be of a high order within the organisation or respected People co opted to provide advice when needed. Nev

[turboplanner]

44 minutes ago, Garfly said:

Yes, well, a certain cynicism towards the machinery of government is definitely called for.  But, "Yes, Minister" like all good comedy, also has its serious side.  It'd be too bad if it had the effect of blunting our sense of indignation in the face of bureaucratic malpractice. Many people are still capable of righteous anger when they hear about agencies bullying individuals unjustly (in this case fellow pilots) even if they don't know them.  And some politicians get genuinely annoyed, too, when they see its effects, up close and personal.  It's not that CASA is a standout case in human history. All organisations with power to punish individuals need to guard against the (natural?) tendency towards systemic cruelty and corruption. History has heaps of warnings: from the Praetorian Guard of ancient Rome to the Stasi of the GDR - and onwards to the present NSW police (back in the news).  And since no organisation is really capable of policing itself, we the people and our reps, and our (serious) media, need to keep an eye on them like hawks.  So I'm not totally cynical about the Senate Committee. At least they're trying to hold the line, even if they appear powerless to effect real and lasting change.

 

Statistics can be real tricky. To fairly compare the FAA with CASA doesn't Airservices Australia need to be taken into account? That means 3,500 more to add to your 859, no?  And by my maths that puts Australia at 16.7 per 100,000; better than the US's 13.6, and without a big manufacturing industry to regulate (or not ;- )

I'l have a look;  The US Air Traffic Organization has 35,000 employees incl 14,000 ATC, 5000 Air Traffic Sipervisors,1,100 Engineers, 6.100 Maintenance technicians and managers plus 8,000 additional employees. ATO is a division of FAA, so I'll check to see if these are additional or in the total I quoted.

[Garfly]

27 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

I'l have a look;  The US Air Traffic Organization has 35,000 employees incl 14,000 ATC, 5000 Air Traffic Sipervisors,1,100 Engineers, 6.100 Maintenance technicians and managers plus 8,000 additional employees. ATO is a division of FAA, so I'll check to see if these are additional or in the total I quoted.

 Okay, Turbs, tally them up ... we'd hate to miss the trees for the forest   ;- )