Effect Of Ukraine War On GA.

[Blueadventures]

On 09/03/2022 at 8:44 PM, Marty_d said:

There are no gentlemen, but there are innocent civilians, and they're the ones being attacked by an invasion force.

 

There's no way Putin can justify this.  It's a territory grab, pure and simple.  I'm really hoping someone close to him puts a bullet in his head, because I can't see this ending well any other way.

Isn't Putin a person with an ego  (and sacrificial at the end of the day ) who is put in place by a group of people who don't wish to be in public view to that extent.

[Garfly]

3 hours ago, Blueadventures said:

Isn't Putin a person with an ego  (and sacrificial at the end of the day ) who is put in place by a group of people who don't wish to be in public view to that extent.

Well, that's exactly what Khodorkovsky reckons:

 

 

[kgwilson]

On 09/03/2022 at 9:47 AM, Methusala said:

Yes, you could SAY that, except that you'd be wrong. Researching the facts, you'd find that Ukraine has, for 8 years, been the aggressor and provoker of military activity.

Ukraine has :

a) In 2014, shortly after the Maiden coup, which installed an unelected government by ousting the elected Lukashenko mob, voluntarily entered an agreement (The Minsk Protocol) to withdraw forces from Donetsk and Lugansk and give them some regional autonomy. They never abided by this agreement which caused the deaths of 13,000, mostly Russian speaking, inhabitants. ;

b) Cooperated with NATO and the US to host joint military exercises over this period and requested many times to  join With NATO. It is a fact that the western leaders had repeatedly and unequivocally agreed not to move NATO "one further inch" towards Russian territory. This has been spectacularly ignored over that past 20 or so years.

c) Accepted US and EU lethal arms shipments increasingly, in the build-up to the present, giving the unmistakably obvious signs that 'something was up'. This has been accompanied by an increase in troop strength along the Dobass frontier of some 60,000 Ukrainian forces. Russia has responded by moving troops into adjoining Russian territory in a logical answer to this build-up.

d) Zelensky has repeatedly claimed that he wishes to have nuclear arms added to Ukraine's arsenal, and;

e) Has acted belligerently throughout his term towards Russia and the Donbass region despite having been elected with a promise to seek peace and de-escalate tensions in Ukraine. 

All wars are horrific and to be avoided at almost any cost. This one is portrayed in western media propaganda falsely and with the strongest bias against the east. It's about control of Russia's resources and a desire by Washington and the EU to finish Russia off completely.

  

 

 

As of 20 February 2019 the UN office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) estimated 12800 to 13,000 people had been killed in the conflict in Eastern Ukraine between Russian backed separatists and Ukrainian government forces since 2014. This figure includes 3,321 civilians including 298 people on board MH17 shot down by a Russian BUK missile, 4,000 Ukrainian armed forces personnel and 5,500 Russian backed separatists. The separatists were fully backed by Russia that provided military, political and economic support endeavouring to undermine the rule of a sovereign nation.

 

The International Criminal Court (ICC) ruled in November 2016 that the war in eastern Ukraine is "an international armed conflict between Ukraine and the Russian Federation." How is it that the Ukraine was the aggressor when it was fighting to retain its own territory exactly as it is doing now.

 

Before the invasion Russia issued 720,000 fast track passports to separatists in the Donbas region. Anyone who wanted one was provided with a passport. This is roughly 20% of the population so what about the 80% majority who did not want a Russian passport?

 

Critics say Russia encouraged separatism and fomented unrest across much of Ukraine after Moscow-friendly President Viktor Yanukovych fled the country in February 2014 in the face of mass protests known as the Maidan.

 

The protests erupted in the Autumn of 2013, when Yanukovych abruptly abandoned plans to sign a pact tightening Ukraine's ties with the European Union and called for closer economic interaction with Russia instead.

 

Ukraine gave up its Nuclear weapons in 1994. If it had not their deterrence may have stopped Putin from invading.

 

My wifes mother was born in Donetsk and witnessed her father and grandfather being murdered by the Bolsheviks in 2017. They were Cossacks who ruled Ukraine during the 17th and 18th centuries. It was ultimately partitioned between the Russian Empire & Poland and on 23 June 1917 the short lived internationally recognised Peoples Republic of Ukraine was formed. She was lucky to survive Stalin's campaign of starvation in 1932-33 when the forced Communist collectives in Russia failed so Stalin stole Ukraine's grain. Up to 8.5 million Ukrainians died from starvation. My wife has (or had) cousins in Donetsk.

 

So Ukraine has always been trying to defend its status as a sovereign state against an aggressive Russia that historically has forcefully exerted its domination and murderous thieving intent. Russia is and always has been the aggressor. Putin thought that Ukrainians would roll over and welcome his troops with open arms. This time though they have had freedom for 30 years and will not give up. Putin may have made the biggest mistake of his megalomaniac political career.

 

 

Edited March 12, 2022 by kgwilson

[danny_galaga]

I've run out of free articles to read, but this could be interesting 

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/08/world/europe/russia-ukraine-media.html?campaign_id=190&emc=edit_ufn_20220309&instance_id=55269&nl=updates-from-the-newsroom&regi_id=144222350&segment_id=85059&te=1&user_id=be4494284f18e3b97d4d582a3b91c668

 

 

[Methusala]

https://www.bitchute.com/video/8vKieJbMmHz3/

 

This comes not from US propaganda daily NYT. Nor from the UK's  BBC. It speaks directly to the morally bankrupt NATO and the USA, who have invaded and destroyed Afghanistan, Syria, Iraq (wmd's), Libya, Yemen, Granada, Panama etc, etc...

No innocent babies, pregnant women, children or geriatric citizens killed, maimed and tortured there?

There are NO hero's, no exceptional, morally correct leaders in this desperate world. War stinks, all can agree. Don't confuse propaganda for information.

[Bruce Tuncks]

Methusela, I really appreciate your showing us that there are 2 sides to every story. Please don't go.

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

But i have to say that Russia is losing the propaganda war..even with me

 

[danny_galaga]

It will be really easy to stop this war. Putin can just pull all his troops out of Ukraine and go back to Russia.

 

Easy peasy

Edited March 13, 2022 by danny_galaga

[Garfly]

6 hours ago, Methusala said:

https://www.bitchute.com/video/8vKieJbMmHz3/

This comes not from US propaganda daily NYT. Nor from the UK's  BBC. It speaks directly to the morally bankrupt NATO and the USA, who have invaded and destroyed Afghanistan, Syria, Iraq (wmd's), Libya, Yemen, Granada, Panama etc, etc.../ /  ... War stinks, all can agree.

Don't confuse propaganda for information.

Oh, it behooves us to avoid confusing propaganda for information, all right.

 

That BitChute link was interesting; a recent speech in the Irish parliament by Richard Boyd Barrett, a long-time, left leaning politician and tireless campaigner for world peace. In the speech he makes a fair point: that the liberal west, whilst rightly standing with Ukraine against "Putin and his thugs" remains strangely slow to support other nations unjustly threatened by powerful neighbours, like that of the Palestinians. 

 

From Wikipedia:

"Richard Boyd Barrett (born 6 February 1967) is an Irish People Before Profit /Solidarity politician .... He is also chair of the Irish Anti-War Movement and has been cited on war issues in the Irish media.  // [He] contested the Dún Laoghaire constituency at the 2011 general election as part of the United Left Alliance." 

 

And yet, his hair would surely catch fire if he knew his ideas were being hijacked by - and distributed by way of - BitChute, one of the most hateful, extreme-right havens of black propaganda on the world-wide-web. The only interest that mob would have in quoting someone like Barrett is that his pro-Palestinian/anti-Zionist positions can be made to seem aligned with their disgusting anti-semitic ravings (among endless other execrable tendencies).

 

From Wikipedia:

BitChute is an alt-tech video hosting service launched by Ray Vahey in January 2017.  It describes itself as offering freedom of expression. The service known for accommodating far-right individuals and conspiracy theorists, and for hosting hate speech. Some creators who use BitChute have been banned from YouTube; some others crosspost content to both platforms or post more extreme content only to BitChute.

 

Yep, you'll find no NYT or BBC style misinformation on good 'ol BigChute.   

 

Speaking of peace and the Palestinians, though, anyone willing to risk their purity might find this NYT piece by Michelle Goldberg instructive (and depressing):

 "Kushner's Absurd Peace Plan Has Failed"

  https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/17/opinion/us-israel-palestine-jared-kushner.html

 

I'm pretty sure Barrett would agree.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 13, 2022 by Garfly

[Jerry_Atrick]

I have only caught up on this thread as these days, I spend more of my time on this forum's sister (or brother) site.

 

I think it is important we try and seek facts, which is a casualty well before a ware starts.. It is an ongoing casualty of the world's operations on both sides of the east-west divide.

 

Until this war, TBH, I knew (and really still know) little of Ukraine and my only relationship with Russia was a Russian girl I dated when I was about 18.. who, by the way was really nice and had no outwardly megalomaniac tendencies. 😉

 

Neither the East or West have perfect, blemish free records. The west has perpetrated some nasty wars, too, and are indefensible. However, that does not detract from, nor justify the indefensibility of this war, which I see everyone seems to agree.

 

@kgwilson has addressed the 13,000 innocent lives claim, and, yes, 3,500 (or thereabouts) innocent lives is that many too much. But how many are going to be killed over a very short period of time in the Ukraine. And how where the civilians killed by the Ukraine in the fight with the separatists? Were they sad collateral damage to attacking military/separatists, or where they killed by intentionally shelling civilian areas and infrastructure, such as hospitals, schools, etc (of course, it may all be propaganda and fake news... but).  While 3,500 civilians have been killed in 12-ish years (so, < 300/year), how long will it take Russia to kill the same innocents in Ukraine, if they haven't already?  Hmm. .Chechnya comes to mind to (amazingly, Chechnya is now pro-Russian)..

 

I hadn't heard of the Maidan Revolution (also known as the Revolution of Dignity) until today. Yes, it was an illegal overthrow of a government, but when governments in the past have materially governed against the will of the people, there often have been revolutions. There were, in the end negotiations between the opposition and the government, after which the government was removed (or fled). That does not make today's Ukrainian government illegitimate - it it were and we were to extend that logic, virtually every European government, including Russia's, would be illegitimate.. and a good few others. In fact, you could argue that because of the wanton violent control the Kremlin exerts over its political opponents, it, today, is not a legitimate government.

 

Russia was simply p155ed off that they were not going to get as much of the proceeds of the Ukrainian bounty as Europe want, and a Kleptocracy cannot have that. Russia funded a separatist movement, after which the fighting resulted int he Misk accords, of which are criticised for their complexity and fragility - brought about by the desire to appease the Russians to stop the fighting rather than confront them.

 

 

By the way, I clicked on the bitchute link and got this:

 

 

 

[edit] Going slightly off topic, I would commend a book for you to read (as I have on socialaustralia.com.au) called Kleptopia, by Tom Burgis. Quite inttruiging about the dirty money that was made in the East's transition to "liberal market economies" is laundered clean in the west... Khodorkovsky, in the video above, I believe, gets a few mentions (although it may be a different Khodorkovsky.. I am sure it isn't).

 

Edited March 13, 2022 by Jerry_Atrick

[Garfly]

20 minutes ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

I would commend a book for you to read ... called Kleptopia, by Tom Burgis ... about the dirty money that was made in the East's transition to "liberal market economies" ... Khodorkovsky, in the video above, I believe, gets a few mentions ..

For anyone interested, Wiki is reasonably short and sweet:

 

Mikhail Borisovich Khodorkovsky ... born 26 June 1963) is an exiled Russian businessman, philanthropist^[6] and former oligarch,^[7] now residing in London.^[8] In 2003, Khodorkovsky was believed to be the wealthiest man in Russia, with a fortune estimated to be worth $15 billion, and was ranked 16th on Forbes list of billionaires.^[9] He had worked his way up the Komsomol apparatus, during the Soviet years, and started several businesses during the period of glasnost and perestroika in the late 1980s. After the dissolution of the Soviet Union, in the mid-1990s, he accumulated considerable wealth by obtaining control of a number of Siberian oil fields unified under the name Yukos, one of the major companies to emerge from the privatization of state assets during the 1990s (a scheme known as "Loans for Shares").

In October 2003, he was arrested by Russian authorities and charged with fraud.^[10] The government under Vladimir Putin, President of the Russian Federation, then froze shares of Yukos shortly thereafter on tax charges. Putin's government took further actions against Yukos, leading to a collapse of the company's share price and the evaporation of much of Khodorkovsky's wealth. In May 2005, he was found guilty and sentenced to nine years in prison. In December 2010, while he was still serving his sentence, Khodorkovsky and his business partner Platon Lebedev were further charged with and found guilty of embezzlement and money laundering, Khodorkovsky's prison sentence was extended to 2014. After Hans-Dietrich Genscher lobbied for his release, President Vladimir Putin pardoned Khodorkovsky, releasing him from jail on 20 December 2013.^[11]

There was widespread concern internationally that the trials and sentencing were politically motivated.^[12][13] The trial was criticized abroad for the lack of due process. Khodorkovsky lodged several applications with the European Court of Human Rights, seeking redress for alleged violations by Russia of his human rights. In response to his first application, which concerned events from 2003 to 2005, the court found that several violations were committed by the Russian authorities in their treatment of Khodorkovsky.^[14] Despite these findings, the court ultimately ruled that the trial was not politically motivated,^[15][16][17] but rather "that the charges against him were grounded in 'reasonable suspicion'".^[16] He was considered to be a prisoner of conscience by Amnesty International.^[13]

On being pardoned by Putin and released from prison at the end of 2013, Khodorkovsky immediately left Russia and was granted residency in Switzerland.^[11][18] At the end of 2013, his personal estate was believed to be worth, as a rough estimate, $100–250 million.^[19] At the end of 2014, he was said to be worth about $500 million.^[20] In 2015, he moved to London.^[21] In December 2016, the Dublin District Court unfroze $100m of Khodorkovsky's assets that had been held in the Republic of Ireland.^[22]

In 2014, Khodorkovsky re-launched Open Russia to promote several reforms to Russian civil society, including free and fair elections, political education, protection of journalists and activists, endorsing the rule of law, and ensuring media independence.^[23][24] He has been described by The Economist as "the Kremlin's leading critic-in-exile".^[25]

[rgmwa]

Jerry_Attrick's lengthy and thoughtful last post just disappeared as I was giving it a `Like'.  Is Putin lurking around here?

[Admin]

There was some antagonism going on, reported posts etc so best to just nip it in the bud before it gets worst and be forced into closing the whole thread 

[Garfly]

40 minutes ago, Admin said:

There was some antagonism going on ,,,,

Perhaps this clip of that Richard Boyd Barrett speech in the Irish parliament can serve here in the role of peace-keeper (I'm sure he'd be willing).  In this one he's shown, in a fuller context, railing against the Putin regime and the NATO alliance, equally.

 

(However, the Ukrainian point-of-view, per se , is, again, given short shrift, so it's back to a degree of 'westsplaining' - scant regard for buffer-state agency ) 

 

This clip is posted by People Before Profit National.  I think we can all agree, this is a far more congenial host for the likes of Barrett than BitChute.

 

 

[flyingbaz]

17 hours ago, Methusala said:

https://www.bitchute.com/video/8vKieJbMmHz3/

 

This comes not from US propaganda daily NYT. Nor from the UK's  BBC. It speaks directly to the morally bankrupt NATO and the USA, who have invaded and destroyed Afghanistan, Syria, Iraq (wmd's), Libya, Yemen, Granada, Panama etc, etc...

No innocent babies, pregnant women, children or geriatric citizens killed, maimed and tortured there?

There are NO hero's, no exceptional, morally correct leaders in this desperate world. War stinks, all can agree. Don't confuse propaganda for information.

You cannot draw a parallel between Israel and Russia. Israel is a country who's very existence is threatened every day by its neighbours (unlike Russia). The abhorrent reference to Israel as an apartheid state is baseless, and condemned even by our own governement (Australia). Israeli citizens enjoy equal rights in the country no matter their race religion or sexual orientation. I would gladly debate the politics of Israel with anyone. But I don't believe Rec Flying is the forum. I wouild also think that poliitical discussions remain outside of this forum. As such please do not respond to my post, as I will not reply to them.

[turboplanner]

48 minutes ago, Garfly said:

Perhaps this clip of that Richard Boyd Barrett speech in the Irish parliament can serve here in the role of peace-keeper (I'm sure he'd be willing).  In this one he's shown, in a fuller context, railing against the Putin regime and the NATO alliance, equally.

 

(However, the Ukrainian point-of-view, per se , is, again, given short shrift, so it's back to a degree of 'westsplaining' - scant regard for buffer-state agency ) 

 

This clip is posted by People Before Profit National.  I think we can all agree, this is a far more congenial host for the likes of Barrett than BitChute.

 

 

This is a classic  example of either:

(a) A speaker who lost the plot after the first paragraph or two and muddied the waters so much that at the end everyone had forgotten about Russia, or:

(b) A reverse-subject speech where the speaker is not interested in Russia but the people he hates and damns them with faint praise.

 

Note that this gentleman came to light only as an example to use to tip a bucket on our country and our allies.

 

All a good reason for this site to stick to discussing Recreational Flying.

[aro]

1 hour ago, flyingbaz said:

As such please do not respond to my post

Kind of rude to tell people not to respond to your post. Why do you think you deserve the last word? It's a forum - if you don't want people to reply, don't post.

[flyingbaz]

48 minutes ago, aro said:

Kind of rude to tell people not to respond to your post. Why do you think you deserve the last word? It's a forum - if you don't want people to reply, don't post.

I should have rather worded it to state I don't wish to get involved in a debate on this topic on this forum. That is what I meant. I'm happy to discuss and debate topics relevant to the forum. But I don't see the relevance or context to bring poilitical views into an aviation forum. That is my point. You're welcome to comment on me as you have done, but I won't be drawn into politcal debates as there are plenty other appropriate forums for this.

[Old Koreelah]

Lets take this discussion to the Off Topic site.

[danny_galaga]

https://www.smh.com.au/national/zelensky-is-the-kind-of-man-putin-loving-conservatives-needed-20220310-p5a3ox.html

[Old Koreelah]

A good news aviation story:

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-61326293

 

[pmccarthy]

The Foxbat people are still making aircraft in Kiev, sending them in containers to Gdansk in Poland for export.

[walrus]

There are no clean hands in this mess.  To try and understand a little of what is going on, you need to read russian or visit russian leaning websites to try and get some balance of a sort given that the western media are biased too.

 

The real "war" is geopolitical. America has been hankering after war with Russia for at least the last ten years because the combination of Russia and its ally China will outgrow the US dominated western empire (which includes us).

 

Ukraine is just a convenient excuse. Kazakhstan, Georgia, a Baltic state - any of them would do,  they couldn't care less. America will fight to the last Ukrainian.

Edited May 6, 2022 by walrus

[burrac]

2 hours ago, walrus said:

There are no clean hands in this mess.  To try and understand a little of what is going on, you need to read russian or visit russian leaning websites to try and get some balance of a sort given that the western media are biased too.

 

The real "war" is geopolitical. America has been hankering after war with Russia for at least the last ten years because the combination of Russia and its ally China will outgrow the US dominated western empire (which includes us).

Many such websites and news outlets have been shut down by Putin. Political opponents are poisoned or assassinated. What balance does that provide?

 

Hankering? The US barely did anything to oppose Putin's march on Ukraine these last 8 years and that emboldened him. He might now be wishing he listened to more than his inner circle. I'm not holding my breath as autocrats tend to double down.

 

China is strong and growing yes. As for Russia outgrowing western economies, even before the sanctions the economy was a bit of a basket case. It will get worse as the world moves away from oil and gas. GDP is barely more than Australia with about 6 times the population. And who will want to buy Russian military hardware now after this display of prowess?

 

Anyway, Ukraine makes some neat recreational flying hardware. It is great to see them continuing to do so despite everything.

[Marty_d]

2 hours ago, walrus said:

There are no clean hands in this mess.  To try and understand a little of what is going on, you need to read russian or visit russian leaning websites to try and get some balance of a sort given that the western media are biased too.

 

The real "war" is geopolitical. America has been hankering after war with Russia for at least the last ten years because the combination of Russia and its ally China will outgrow the US dominated western empire (which includes us).

 

Ukraine is just a convenient excuse. Kazakhstan, Georgia, a Baltic state - any of them would do,  they couldn't care less. America will fight to the last Ukrainian.

I'm sorry, Russia invades Ukraine and somehow it's America's fault??

 

The USA has done some godawful things in the past but I don't think you can lay this one at their door.

 

As for getting a balanced point of view - that's kind of like saying we should give equal weight to the medical opinions of anti-vaxxers.

 

Look at the results so far.  Cities shelled and bombarded.  Thousands of civilians dead.  Mass graves.  Bodies with signs of torture.  Remind me again of how many of those are Russian civilians in Russia?