Effect Of Ukraine War On GA.

[rgmwa]

I'm surprised they said as much as they did in front of a camera. Most even called it a war.

[Garfly]

I think the young man who said "We are at war because old men wanted it"  got it in one.

 

Even by low estimates, 20,000 of this generation of Russians (alone) have died this year at the behest of - for the sole benefit of - old 'rogue politicians'.   An entire Sydney-to-Surf fun-run crowd, slaughtered in their prime since February.  Not even counting Ukrainian losses.  And for what, exactly?

 

What strikes me about the attitude of these young folks (admittedly, a skewed urban sample) is how few of them show a hint of the Putin-esque world-view that apparently fuels the war: mother-Russia under imminent military threat from NATO and the west. (How many actually do feel threatened?  By percentage, probably similar to the number of Americans who believe Trump won in 2020. And for similar reasons.)  But this national paranoia was not, at all, the spirit of the Gorbachev/Yeltsin era - not even of the early Putin era - quite the opposite. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia–NATO_relations#:~:text=Formal contacts and cooperation between,program on 22 June 1994..

 

But what our ex-KGB guy, clever and cruel in equal proportions, understood was that to take and hold power for life (despite the constitution) he needed to beat up and exploit ingrained historical anxieties around the outside world bent on humiliating  and defeating the motherland.  (Thanks Napoleon. Thanks Hitler.)

 

Yes, of course, inept and chauvinistic foreign policy wielded by old, rogue western politicians helped Putin enormously along the way.

 

But in any case, nothing infuriates citizens of former Russian vassal states more than the idea that their wish to join NATO could only have originated in the (expansionist) West.  As if they have no authentic agency of their own; or perfectly good reasons of their own.  Ask the average Estonian or Pole - and now the average Finn or Swede - whether they jumped or were pushed.

 

It seems that most informed Russians don't think it necessary - or even reasonable - to defend the Putin / Lavrov war in order to defend Russia as a whole - in its cultural fullness.  After all, if Alexei Navalny was in Putin's place, the whole problem would go away. Only the prospect of young Russians having a fair shot at a long life would remain.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 14, 2022 by Garfly

[Methusala]

5 hours ago, rgmwa said:

are you saying that the west is ultimately responsible for the current special military operation because it left Putin with no other choice but to invade a neighbouring country? 

‘Information’, ‘spin’, ‘propaganda’… all out there and accessible. The facts are indisputable and correct. Ukraine suffered constant meddling in her affairs. Attempted coup 2004 followed by the infamous (Victoria Nuland plus CIA directed) Maidan, bloody coup installing western friendly Poreshenko in 2014. After this France and Germany conspired to lead the Minsk 1 and Minsk 2 treaties which Ukraine never adhered to. It has lately been revealed, through their own speech, that Merkel and EU president admit that these were only ever hollow ruse intended to give Nato and the US time to prepare armies for the proxy war to follow.

 

For 8 years a murderous campaign was waged by Ukraine’s western backed govt against Russian speaking Ukrainian citizens in Donetsk and Lugansk resulting in over 14,000 civilian lives lost.

 

Ukraine was always ‘informally’ attached to Nato. Joined at the hip as it were. The west began pouring shipments of Lethal, offensive weapons into Ukraine in the 2020’s under the pretext o0f preparing for a Russian assault. However, the truth is that they were preparing for a final, definitive assault to return Crimea and overwhelm the Donbass.

 

Russia had seen the west destroy any trust by continually encroaching Nato forces and weapons eastwards. This was an abrogation of ‘sincere’, documented undertakings not to shift Nato ‘one inch further east’ given in 1991 when east Germany re-united with west.

 

No matter how it is attempted to be spun, the facts speak for themselves.

 

I could carry this explanation for ‘ever’ if I felt so motivated. All of this stuff is out there and indisputable. My hope is to instigate some genuine truth finding by people interested in the true causes and, importantly, the possible consequences of this situation. What I believe is unimportant. What effort others expend will be rewarded with a deeper understanding of how powerful are the forces trying to influence informed opinions.

[Garfly]

On 13/07/2022 at 1:37 PM, Methusala said:

 My grandpa told me when I was 5 years old, “There are 2 sides to all stories.”

49 minutes ago, Methusala said:

No matter how it is attempted to be spun, the facts speak for themselves.

 

We all need our self-affirming certainties challenged from time to time.  But 'hair of the dog'  ain't much of a remedy.

[onetrack]

Methusala, you are a victim of the exceptionally subtle disinformation campaign pushed by the Russian Govt. The Cold War propaganda machine has been finely honed for todays world and takes massive advantage of todays rapid and widely-used social media communication channels - which are a godsend in that users can be permanently anonymous - to promote a "false narrative" around any warlike action that Russia indulges in.

 

The narrative you have been sucked into believing, is one that ignores Putins often-stated, unshakeable beliefs, that Russia needs to return to the Stalinist, Soviet era, where Russia dominated and controlled vast numbers of countries in Eastern Europe - all of which were taken over by Communist forces, using military force, during the disruption of WW2.

 

Putin worships Stalin and the Stalinist era and has a stated aim to return Russia to that once-dominant position in the region, by whatever means it takes, to displace any democratically elected Govt with one that is highly favourable to Russia and Putins aims.

 

https://www.rand.org/pubs/perspectives/PE198.html

[rgmwa]

Methusala, I think your research into the ‘facts’ is leading you down a lot of rabbit holes. The bottom line is the Ukrainians want Putin to mind his own business and get out of their country.

Edited July 15, 2022 by rgmwa

[Methusala]

The world has changed since 24th February 2022, and it won't come back to the former status quo.

3 hours ago, rgmwa said:

The bottom line is the Ukrainians want Putin to mind his own business and get out of their country.

Sergey Lavrov told the BBC (and hence, the world),

 

'We don't care what the  west thinks!'

 

Bob Dylan wrote (sang) in the mid 60's:-

Come senators, congressmen
Please heed the call
Don't stand in the doorway
Don't block up the hall
For he that gets hurt
Will be he who has stalled

....For the times they are a changin'

 

We should be ready. Forewarned is said to be fore-armed.

 

PS. Garfly, i don't get  your  'Hair of the dog' comment. I don't care for un-informed comments on my character. I've never had my mental competence questioned by those whom I hold in any regard. My comments are not directed at individuals; nor are they meant to be perceived as malicious.

 

STOP PRESS!

'Biden is escalating the Russia-Ukraine conflict, risking a catastrophic fight with Moscow', an ex-congresswoman has warned. -  former congresswoman and 2020 presidential candidate Tulsi Gabbard has warned.

'

Edited July 15, 2022 by Methusala
Addition

[rgmwa]

Methusala, I object to your claim that Bob Dylan can sing. 

[Admin]

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