Stalls are more scary than spins.

[facthunter]

Ailerons are of doubtful effect at (or near) the stall. You can only stall a rudder on a multi with one  engine on none or reduced power. A sideslip can reach the limit of rudder power without it stalling..  It's effectiveness can put a limit on crosswind capability. Nev

[Roundsounds]

The fans of the hands off spin recovery or Mueller / Beggs method take note..

The only spin recovery method to train and apply is that published in the type POH / AFM. 

Sad that two keen and experienced aviators likely lost their lives as the result of an incorrect recovery technique.

 

https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/news-items/2022/spin-recovery/?fbclid=IwAR3p-ChBpKfeH2evZmTr6E07mXR95cyjOaw0zCAiCid-RIbRotd1c4UObcc

[djpacro]

3 minutes ago, Roundsounds said:

The fans of the hands off spin recovery or Mueller / Beggs method take note..

The only spin recovery method to train and apply is that published in the type POH / AFM. 

Sad that two keen and experienced aviators likely lost their lives as the result of an incorrect recovery technique.

 

https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/news-items/2022/spin-recovery/?fbclid=IwAR3p-ChBpKfeH2evZmTr6E07mXR95cyjOaw0zCAiCid-RIbRotd1c4UObcc

I'd been expecting something like that when the report came out!

 

Over the years I have had robust arguments, taking your side, against those who promoted Beggs/Mueller for all types. You still see it in a popular book by a well known instructor. CASA even had that statement in the draft of CAAP 155-1. 

[Thruster88]

Is not spinning the aircraft guaranteed to work every time?

[Thruster88]

I make the comment above because going out and practicing spin recovery in any aircraft to make GA flying safer makes about as much sense as shutting down two engines  in a RAAF 707.

 

Learning spin recovery for your own personal reasons, I am ok with that. 

Edited August 10, 2022 by Thruster88

[Roundsounds]

6 minutes ago, Thruster88 said:

I make the comment above because going out and practicing spin recovery in any aircraft to make GA flying safer makes about as much sense is shutting down two engines  in a RAAF 707.

 

Learning spin recovery for your own personal reasons, I am ok with that. 

There is less risk involved in spinning a spin certified airplane at a safe height by an appropriately trained pilot than there is during the takeoff and landing phases of flight from capital city aerodromes.
A fear of spinning is an indication of a gap in a pilot’s aeronautical knowledge.  

Edited August 10, 2022 by Roundsounds

[Thruster88]

14 minutes ago, Roundsounds said:

There is less risk involved in spinning a spin certified airplane at a safe height by an appropriately trained pilot than there is during the takeoff and landing phases of flight from capital city aerodromes.
A fear of spinning is an indication of a gap in a pilot’s aeronautical knowledge.  

I agree there is no risk involved in spinning certified aircraft when done by appropriately trained pilots. I have done spins.

 

Chances of recovery from a spin in the circuit by a pilot that has had a few spin lessons would be almost zero? Let's face it no one accidentally spins in cruise flight.

 

If the the spin training makes pilots more aware of the risks of stalling in the the circuit then yes there is some benefit. The same result could be achieved by all student pilots being made to watch 20 mins of stall spin crashes as part of their licence.  Stall/ spinning to the ground = death

Edited August 10, 2022 by Thruster88

[facthunter]

No one accidently spins any time . (nor do they  accidently STALL). You can have UPSETS where the plane falls out of a level and it could be caused by icing or a loss of thrust. Transport pilots are trained today to deal with this and ENCOURAGED to do spin practice in Light aircraft also. Nev

[Roundsounds]

15 minutes ago, Thruster88 said:

I agree there is no risk involved in spinning certified aircraft when done by appropriately trained pilots. I have done spins.

 

Chances of recovery from a spin in the circuit by a pilot that has had a few spin lessons would be almost zero? Let's face it no one accidentally spins in cruise flight.

 

If the the spin training makes pilots more aware of the risks of stalling in the the circuit then yes there is some benefit. The same result could be achieved by all student pilots being made to watch 20 mins of stall spin crashes as part of their licence.  Stall/ spinning to the ground = death

I couldn’t agree more with your comments around chances of recovery. Training of slow flight, stall and spin awareness, avoidance and recovery is poor to say the least. 

[facthunter]

There is NO chance of recovery from a spin at low level. No one of any knowledge  has ever suggested that.  Some planes have a relatively LOW RoD when spinning and it's fairly predictable for each type. SOME like a DHC-1 Chipmunk descend fairly fast and are generally fatal. At the initial unstall and recovery point most planes are at a steep nosed down position dive  entry and have to be recovered without entering another stall. If you don't do this part successfully you are in trouble again.  Any time your nose is pointing sharply at the ground you are going to need a fair bit of height to recover.  Nev

[Garfly]

17 minutes ago, Roundsounds said:

I couldn’t agree more with your comments around chances of recovery. Training of slow flight, stall and spin awareness, avoidance and recovery is poor to say the least. 

I imagine that if upset recovery training could imprint on pilots' reflexes nothing more than "In fear and doubt, don't pull back!"  then lives might be saved. Maybe even in the circuit. After all, can we not assume that most of those stall/spin fatals began with a wobble - that was somehow saveable?  

 

Hard to know for sure. The evidence of Air France 447 is not encouraging. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jsch6vFlcE4

 

[Roundsounds]

36 minutes ago, Garfly said:

I imagine that if upset recovery training could imprint on pilots' reflexes nothing more than "In fear and doubt, don't pull back!"  then lives might be saved. Maybe even in the circuit. After all, can we not assume that most of those stall/spin fatals began with a wobble - that was somehow saveable?  

 

Hard to know for sure. The evidence of Air France 447 is not encouraging. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jsch6vFlcE4

 

GA schools haven’t caught onto the P in UPRT, ie Prevention. If a pilot has the skills to recover from an upset in the circuit area, they wouldn’t have allowed the situation to develop in the first place. Laser focus on IAS and minimising bank angles without enough attention to slip / skid and a continue mindset on approach rather than a go-around bias. If only pilots would spend money on quality UPRT and less on fancy bluetooth headsets, go-pros and EFBs the accident rate would reduce. 

Edited August 10, 2022 by Roundsounds

[djpacro]

4 minutes ago, Roundsounds said:

GA schools haven’t caught onto the P in UPRT, ie Prevention.

I see evidence that it is slowly coming. On the other hand I see some UPRT courses advertised with very little on the P.

 

i also see pilots habitually letting the speed decay on the base to final turn because they pull back (as they recall being taught to turn that way).

 

i commented elsewhere today that I don’t recall a CASA AvSafety Seminar ever addressing the risk of loss of control.and the relevance of that P.

[Garfly]

At 14:50 in this vid Perdue teaches Beggs/Mueller recovery, among other methods, in the Bonanza (and mentions that it doesn't work in the C150)

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

My only real spin entry was in a Ventus in Nevada. I was taking a photo of a snow-topped mountain and framing the picture with the rudder while looking through the camera at the clear-vision panel. Bugger, thought I. My old Mosquito back home would never have entered a spin. But at 17,000 ft, ( 12,000 agl, the sagebush plains are at 5000 ft.) in a strong glider, there was no fear.

I did get scared at Tocumwal on the base-to -finals turn in a short-wing Lancair. The plane was strong enough but there would not have been enough height to recover. And there was not much wing holding us up.

Any training should therefore focus on spin prevention, not spin recovery.

[facthunter]

That was supposed to be the "thought music" when spinnable planes became scarce in the mid 60's. The latest fool act is to limit bank to 30 degrees. You reach 30 and then use extra rudder?  Overshooting final centre line is one of the worst causes/situations, usually when there's a downwind on base. IF you have to pick up a wing with rudder you are already too slow for  the wingload. You have to add energy. Either lose height or add power or BOTH. but maintain control.. Nev

Edited August 11, 2022 by facthunter

[Garfly]

14 hours ago, Roundsounds said:

If a pilot has the skills to recover from an upset in the circuit area, they wouldn’t have allowed the situation to develop in the first place. 

 

"Nobody thinks it will happen to them. But before you know it, there you are. Low, slow, and approaching a stall. And how well you react in those few seconds makes all the difference in the world. Often times, it's the difference between a safe recovery and a fatal crash."

 

"So who are these stall-spin accidents happening to? According to the ASF study, student pilots and ATPs were the least likely pilots to have a stall-spin accident. That leaves the majority of stall-spin accidents to private and commercial pilots."

Source:

https://www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-fly/maneuvers/here-is-where-stall-spin-accidents-happen-the-most-often-in-flight-phase/

 

 

 

 

 

[facthunter]

It's human to get lazy and cut corners. Fly every flight like a checkie is looking over your shoulder, Debrief every cross country (to yourself ) HONESTLY and maintain/improve your standard without doing a BFR. Practice certain manouvers like level figure 8's till you add and reduce Power, anticipating it rather than responding to a "wrong" situation AFTER it shows on the instruments.  Nev. 

[APenNameAndThatA]

On 10/8/2022 at 6:36 PM, Thruster88 said:

I agree there is no risk involved in spinning certified aircraft when done by appropriately trained pilots. I have done spins.

 

Chances of recovery from a spin in the circuit by a pilot that has had a few spin lessons would be almost zero? Let's face it no one accidentally spins in cruise flight.

 

If the the spin training makes pilots more aware of the risks of stalling in the the circuit then yes there is some benefit. The same result could be achieved by all student pilots being made to watch 20 mins of stall spin crashes as part of their licence.  Stall/ spinning to the ground = death

It improves your situational awareness and decreases the risk of panicking and pulling back on the stick. The benefit of spin recovery training is not recovery from spins.

[Garfly]

https://www.flyingmag.com/the-spin-doctor-and-the-art-of-the-spin/

 

PILOT PROFICIENCY    The ‘Spin Doctor’ and the Art of the Spin

By Meg Godlewski

August 12, 2022

 

Excerpt:

' Sadly this information did not reach a flight instructor and learner in Australia, who on June 23, 2021, were flying a Cessna A150 Aerobat with the intent of practicing two methods of spin recovery. The airplane crashed, killing both occupants. The accident was investigated by the Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB). According to the report, “While experienced in other aerobatic aircraft, the instructor likely had no experience conducting spinning and/or spin instruction in the accident aircraft type or similar variants. ATSB has issued a Safety Advisory Notice alerting aerobatic pilots and instructors of the limitations of the Meuller/Beggs spin recovery method for some aircraft types.” '