Stalls are more scary than spins.

[facthunter]

Yes . The elevator position (always) stalls the wing.  Nev

[APenNameAndThatA]

On 27/2/2022 at 3:01 PM, Roundsounds said:

If you are scared of stalling it must be through lack of understanding. There is very little to no chance of an aeroplane entering an unintentional spin to a properly trained pilot. Entry to an unintentional spin would be the result of incorrect control inputs during stall recovery, this would not happen to a properly trained / educated pilot.

You should see some instruction from a suitably experienced and qualified flight instructor to resolve your issue. 

It’s more the out of control plunging sensation than a lack of knowledge. 

[APenNameAndThatA]

On 27/2/2022 at 4:50 PM, Bruce Tuncks said:

What scares me is not the spin itself but the load on the wings during recovery. Ripping your wings off sure scares me. I actually knew a guy who died when his Nimbus 4 glider broke up  in a thermal in Nevada. It was thought that they had spun during thermalling, then ripped the wings off doing the recovery.

Another reason spinning in an aerobatic aircraft is less scary than stalling in a standard aircraft! In reality, of course, stalls are virtually 1G manoeuvres and are gentle on aircraft. 

[APenNameAndThatA]

On 27/2/2022 at 9:08 PM, djpacro said:

I should’ve added: if you use the Vixen method in the Super Decathlon and it will not recover but instead transition to an inverted spin.

I might try that! 

[APenNameAndThatA]

On 28/2/2022 at 8:34 AM, Bruce Tuncks said:

I entered an accidental spin once. I was at 17,000 ft taking a photo through the clear-vision panel of a ventus glider. My eyes were at the camera and I was trying to frame the photo with the rudder pedals. So I dunno what the speeds etc were, but that ventus sure kicked into a spin. Bugger, thought I, my old mosquito would not have done this.

The spin turned into a spiral dive after half a turn, so pronounced was the pitch-down. Recovery was simply a matter of pulling out smoothly.

Nobody else was around and there was all the height in the world.

Surely you unloaded the stick (kind of the opposite of pulling out) then levelled the wings then pulled out? I know I’m being the post police, but your post could give someone the wrong impression. 

[APenNameAndThatA]

On 1/3/2022 at 8:14 AM, facthunter said:

You have to "deal" with spirals and spins together especially under the hood. A spiral will build up speed and airframe loads fast. It was known as the "graveyard spiral". First thing you  do is IDENTIFY "Spin or Spiral"?. The recoveries are entirely different. Nev

Isn’t the start the same, though? Cut the power and check the airspeed? 

[APenNameAndThatA]

On 28/2/2022 at 11:39 PM, danny_galaga said:

Even a regular stall gives me the willies. I am not aerobatic material 😄 I only ever practice them with an instructor, which I am doing this wednesday weather and flooding permitting....

You can be if you want. I had to go on 100 rides at Dreamworld and Movieworld, over 2.5 months. In an Extra, before I did that, I was game to do steep turns only. After I did that, I did loops and things in the Extra. The next trip (IIRC) I did and recovered from an inverted spin. 

 

Before I had done that, I had never been on the thrill rides at Dreamworld because I was not game. I started off going on them with my eyes closed so I could cope. No lie. 100% true.

 

On Saturday, weather permitting, it will be back in the Extra to do tumbles/Lomcovaks. I will ask about doing an inverted flick roll but maybe they aren’t a thing because you might burst something. 

 

The weird thing about habituation to scary things is that it does not feel that it will work while it is happening. That is, it does not *feel* as though it will feel get less scary with time.  

[APenNameAndThatA]

On 28/2/2022 at 4:30 AM, Garfly said:

 

 

 

That is an EXCELLENT video! Thanks! Power on stalls were a total anticlimax in the Decathlon. But I’m doing power on stalls in the Foxbat with my instructor before I do them alone. I’ve never done one in the Foxbat before! I’ll test the idea you can’t spin an aircraft without pro-spin inputs! 

Edited March 2, 2022 by APenNameAndThatA

[Bruce Tuncks]

Yep Apename, I probably did unload the elevator as you suggest. My memory of the whole thing is not good, but I still have a photo of a snow-covered mountain top, (  northern face snow in August), in Nevada  as a momento. The valley floors are at 5000 ft and the ridge-tops are at 12,000 ft. I had climbed over the ridge-tops and flown out over a valley, so the 17,000 ft was on the clock but it was "only" 12,000 ft above the valley floor.

You can sure get high there...  another day, I saw 19,0000 ft on the clock near Hawthorne, on the way to see area 51 where certain lunatics think the govt has UFO bits in storage. There is a one-horse town which consists of a service station on a dusty gravel road.  Out from the service station, there is a track leading up to a bare hilltop, from where you can apparently see some buildings in the distance where the alien artifacts are stored. There were no customers looking when I flew over.

[F10]

Spin is a stalled condition, with this difference, the “autorotation”. When one wing stalls before the other, it drops and the aircraft yaws towards the greater drag of the dropped wing and rolls towards it, as it has less lift than the high wing. Flat spins (aircraft close to level attitude) have high rates of yaw, compared to roll. Nose down spins tend to have higher rates of roll, to yaw. On spin recovery, the high wing will install first. This leads to a sudden rapid increase in roll rate, for about 1/2 to 3/4 of a spin turn, before damping in roll stops the roll, abruptly. This “wind up”, can look like the spin is getting worse, but it is in fact, a sign of recovery.

[APenNameAndThatA]

1 hour ago, F10 said:

Spin is a stalled condition, with this difference, the “autorotation”. When one wing stalls before the other, it drops and the aircraft yaws towards the greater drag of the dropped wing and rolls towards it, as it has less lift than the high wing. Flat spins (aircraft close to level attitude) have high rates of yaw, compared to roll. Nose down spins tend to have higher rates of roll, to yaw. On spin recovery, the high wing will install first. This leads to a sudden rapid increase in roll rate, for about 1/2 to 3/4 of a spin turn, before damping in roll stops the roll, abruptly. This “wind up”, can look like the spin is getting worse, but it is in fact, a sign of recovery.

The bit I “like” 😆is when you put in full opposite rudder and… nothing happens, you just keep spinning. Then it slows down

[djpacro]

On 02/03/2022 at 11:21 PM, APenNameAndThatA said:

Thanks! Power on stalls were a total anticlimax in the Decathlon. ..... I’ll test the idea you can’t spin an aircraft without pro-spin inputs! 

The Decathlon is very docile but it sometimes bites. Simply applying full throttle can result in "pro-spin inputs" if the pilot doesn't "Advance the throttle promptly, but smoothly, as needed while using rudder and elevator controls to stop any yawing motion and prevent any undesirable pitching motion." per https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/airplane_handbook/media/06_afh_ch5.pdf

[Roundsounds]

On 2/3/2022 at 11:21 PM, APenNameAndThatA said:

That is an EXCELLENT video! Thanks! Power on stalls were a total anticlimax in the Decathlon. But I’m doing power on stalls in the Foxbat with my instructor before I do them alone. I’ve never done one in the Foxbat before! I’ll test the idea you can’t spin an aircraft without pro-spin inputs! 

What would you consider pro-spin inputs to be?

[APenNameAndThatA]

5 hours ago, Roundsounds said:

What would you consider pro-spin inputs to be?

crossed controls

[Bruce Tuncks]

I reckon crossed controls are a pro-spin input, together with up elevator.

 

[djpacro]

 

On 06/03/2022 at 12:27 AM, Roundsounds said:

What would you consider pro-spin inputs to be?

A very good question. The link to a chapter of the FAA's Airplane Flying Handbook that I provided earlier provides the typical explanations that pilots are taught. But it only touches on the answer to the question.

Page 5-20 describes the "Cross-Control Stall" - a good scenario to have demonstrated however there are many other scenarios with cross controls with different outcomes.

Page 5-22 discusses spin awareness with some generic comments and useful advice.

It then goes on to explain the normal practice spins.

The FAA's document does not directly answer that question and I wouldn't try to answer that question directly myself either.

[APenNameAndThatA]

So, I tried doing a lomcicak The instructor did one, I tried one, and then I felt sick 🙁. We went +5G and -3.5G. My eyeballs didn’t burst or fill up with blood. The airplane flipping all over the place made control inputs tricky. Apparently I did a flick roll then a negative flick roll so close enough 🙂.

[Bruce Tuncks]

You are braver than me Apen.

Well by Jabiru has a notice about "no aerobatics, including deliberate spins."

I don't need the notice.

[facthunter]

If things happen that you didn't anticipate you are not in control . Nev

[APenNameAndThatA]

1 hour ago, facthunter said:

If things happen that you didn't anticipate you are not in control . Nev

That is true. I wasn't. Obviously not in danger though, because I was started of at 80 kt slight nose up, and I was in an Extra with an instructor. 

Edited March 21, 2022 by APenNameAndThatA

[APenNameAndThatA]

2 hours ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

You are braver than me Apen.

Well by Jabiru has a notice about "no aerobatics, including deliberate spins."

I don't need the notice.

That is very kind of you to say. I get a lot of comfort from being in a plane that is very hard to break. I have got used to trusting the straps. That took a while. Apparently, being in an open-cockpit plane takes even more getting used to. 😬 

[APenNameAndThatA]

Just now, APenNameAndThatA said:

That is very kind of you to say. Me starting off on the Claw at Dreamworld with my eyes tight shut proves that bravery is a state rather than a trait.

 

 I get a lot of comfort from being in a plane that is very hard to break. I have got used to trusting the straps. That took a while. Apparently, being in an open-cockpit plane takes even more getting used to. 😬 

 

[APenNameAndThatA]

4 hours ago, facthunter said:

If things happen that you didn't anticipate you are not in control . Nev

That is one of the reasons I don't like stalls. You don't know which wing will drop, for example, 

[facthunter]

I've had misrigged planes drop wings against the rudder application, but there's something very wrong with such planes. YOU can decide which way it will rotate every time. Eg in a flick roll. Yes it's comforting to have an "unbreakable" plane and hanging in the straps with no canopy was always un nerving for me and others I've spoken to over the years. It's only psychological as most canopies aren't that strong. Nev

[APenNameAndThatA]

2 hours ago, facthunter said:

I've had misrigged planes drop wings against the rudder application, but there's something very wrong with such planes. YOU can decide which way it will rotate every time. Eg in a flick roll. Yes it's comforting to have an "unbreakable" plane and hanging in the straps with no canopy was always un nerving for me and others I've spoken to over the years. It's only psychological as most canopies aren't that strong. Nev

I was deliberately not choosing. My understanding is that the only way to choose is to use a little pre-spin input, with rudder and/or ailerons!