Inflight Safety Culture

[Kelvin]

G'Day,

 

I bacame interested in flying during the 50th celebratios on The Battle of Britian where some pilots had trained at Point Cook near Melbourne. I then began GA training from Avalon in 98, went solo in 99 and clocked up 47.7 hours before being 'distracted' by too much work and not enough family. When thinking of getting back into the air my CFI ex-Naval Commander of 42 years was test flying a Lancair IV turbo-prop and nosed dived from 4000 feet at Drysdale in 2002. Hence the title of this thread.

 

I became aware of the rapid developments in RA and advised a friend last year on how to become a pilot. I had a TIF in A Gazzle at Lethbridge Air Park and realised what I'd been missing in March 07. In turn he (now licenced) introduced me to this forum.

 

I dread the time in swatting up on on BAK again but noticed a 10+ CD BAK TRAINING kit had just been taken off the market by a QLD flight training provider from a lack of support. There are similar BAK training CD's in Canada but it's just not the same. Just when I thought it would be a great way to get back into flying again. Encouragement, well I get plenty from my new pilot friend (like you wouldn't believe).

 

:help:I'm hoping for some feedback on this thread from anyone really.

 

 

[farri]

Feedback.

 

Kelvin,

 

Sorry about the commander doing the test flying.

 

I`m quite happy to assist in any way I can however I`m not sure what it is that you require,can you be more specific.

 

farri.

 

 

[Kelvin]

Thanks Farri,

 

I need to build the idol-of-my-life’s confidence in RA given what happened to my CFI in GA. If I had BAK on CD’S I could go through it more easily with her and hopefully show that RA addresses all incident causes including design, environment and behavior, as in pure safety science. Do see where I’m coming from? I could just plow on and worry my wife no end. On the other hand by trying to find a spare set of the CD’s that had been released and no longer needed, is well worth the attempt

 

Kelvin.

 

 

[facthunter]

Wifes confidence.

 

Kelvin, there are no guarantees here. A wife flying with her husband is not a common thing, in fact it appears to be relatively rare. If she was helping you to build the aircraft, then that might help, and she should be able to operate the aircraft as well, in case you get food poisoning or something. The level of safety is very much determined by you in these aircraft, as you can design it, build it, service it and decide your own level of competence (above the required minimum of course). ie. when, where and how you fly is up to you. My wife flys with me and gets involved with the planning and navigation and that keeps her busy. She will fly it to give me a short break to draw some lines on a map or such. She will never like turbulence, and has no desire to fly with anybody else. I'm not sure if she would want to come up with me in a Drifter either. You have to work on it. Good luck ..Nev..

 

 

[farri]

BAK CD.

 

Kelvin,

 

I can`t help with the CD,someone else may be able to,however, I can try to assist by sharing some of my experience and philosophy.

 

As far as BAK goes,it is just the theory to understand why the aircraft flies,It will not and can not fly the aircraft ,the pilot does and it is the understanding and the skill of the pilot that is required to complete a safe flight,what happened to your CFI has nothing what so ever to do with your ability or anything you may wish to do in Recreational Aviation,other than your memory of the accident.

 

As an instructor I asked myself, what I could do to stop the accidents and I came to the conclusion,that, other than to instruct well and create the best pilot I could,I could do no more,I was never going to stop accidents because I believe that everyone has their fate and accidents will always occur for many reasons.

 

I started flying, what we used to call,Ultralights,now called, Recreational Aircraft,over 20 years ago,we didn`t even have twin seat instruction then, as twin seat aircraft were not legal,I have never so much as been scratched, in all of that time.

 

I can assure you that todays recreational aircraft, well maintained,are far safer than driving on our roads but they are still only as safe as a pilot wishes to make them.

 

I can also assure you that, the Australian Ultralight Federation and now the Recreational Aviation Australia have always done everything possible,within their power, to improve safety within our sport,it finaly comes down to the individual.

 

I don`t know if I helped at all or if you will ever build the idol-of your -life`s confidence,just give it your best shot.

 

Regards,

 

Frank. :thumb_up:

 

 

[shafs64]

I

 

was out flying on the day that aircraft spun in. the person who owned it was a

 

local from werribee.

 

i few time i saw it taxi past at YMPC it looked like a hot ship.

 

I used a DVD set from a place called sportys they seemed to help me.

 

Paul

 

 

[motzartmerv]

G'day mate.. Showing the missus the bak won't really prove that a safety culture exist's.. Im sure these guys that make a mistake and end up killing themselve's have all read the bak, and probably much more then that.. You see safety culture is a personal thing, like airmanship. You may pass your test's fine and then go on to never do any checks or anything else for the rest of your (short) life, or, you can set high standards for yourself with regards to safety and airmanship..

 

Once you get your licence the buck stops with you.. Aeroplanes very very rarely crash due to things like wings falling off in normal cruise, if ever. most crashes are pilot induced..

 

So what can we do to minimise the chances of that happening??, well, as i said before, set yourself high standards and don't deviate from them.. Fly the machine within its tolerances and always ALWAYS practise good airmanship and fly witnin your self imposed limitations..If you do that and make it as natural and instinctive as the rest of your flying then you will enjoy a long happy flying life..Ive found the best thing to put a pax at ease is to be methodical with preflight checks and all the other checks, so they get used to seeing you spending a lot of effort at all stages of the flight methodically running through checklist's and things.. It makes them feel that nothing is left to chance and every base is coverd. For instance doing the bumfish check on downwind aloud, and when you get to the hatches and harnesses you ask them "is your hatch and harness secure?'..obviously they havn't opened the door or undone there seatbelt during the flight, but you are checking none the less, so the pax will think wow, he really does check EVRYTHING..i am in good hands here..

 

ok, ive rattled on enough..cheers and good luck...:thumb_up:

 

(moderated - language - Ian)

 

 

[shafs64]

I agree with the above.

 

If you read the accident report you will find out why it happened. you are not able to always take away risk factor.

 

However you can minimise it by being a good pilot and i don't mean stick and rudder flying.

 

Paul

 

 

[Ben Longden]

To me, flying is a LOT safer than driving... and a helluva lot more fun.

 

Robyn is a nervous passenger, and Ive only managed to get her in the right seat once this past year. The kids are a different story.

 

I did the full safety routine with Robyn, and somehow that made her even more scared. She has a friend with a PA 28 "who never does any of that stuff" and she felt safer. Mind you, some of the stories of her flights with him made me wonder if the guy is fit to fly...

 

Having said that, she has enough confidence in me to trust me with the kids, as she knows I go overboard on flight safety and wont risk anything - and always plan the flight and fly the plan.

 

Ben

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Ben, yea, i was going to say that doing the full routine could go either way..If your pax is a deep thinker perhaps, then mabye they could start to think "well if he needs to go through all this routine just to keep us up then it must be incredibly dangerous"..hehe..but ive found (so far) if you explain that its all just checking and double cheking the obvious things so nothing gets left out it tends to relax them slightly..

 

 

[ab0767]

Kevin all I can say is the words of wisdom given to me by my first instructor :-

 

98% of all aircraft accidents are caused by pilot error, i.e. the pilot didn't do something he should have, or he did some thing he should not have.

 

Solution. Do EVERYTHING you should do and don't do ANYTHING you shoudn't,

 

99% of aircraft accidents involve the ground.

 

Solution:- Stay away from it.

 

You have subscribed to a great forum, where you can ask any anything and someone with more knowledge or experience will give you an honest answer.

 

All the people that subscribe to this forum are primarily interested in their own personal safety, the safety of their passengers and the safety of their fellow aviators as well as the safety of their aircraft.

 

I like to think that RA-AUS does not only have 8500 members but it also has 8500 safety officers and that is what makes it work.

 

 

[shafs64]

try this site

 

http://www.airstechnologies.com.au/about/content.htm#3

 

 

[farri]

Safety Culture.

 

When I started flying there had been 39 deaths in Ultralights,this worried me so I decided I didn`t want to become another one but I realy wanted to fly these machines.

 

The accidents kept happening and I became so concerned I stoped reading the reports,I finaly decided it was better to know why the accidents were happening than to bury my head in the sand and I started to research them all as best I could and what did I find?

 

Most accidents occur because of the actions or mistakes of the pilot,I know of only 1 where it looked like a wing came off,was this pilot error?.

 

How many have gone into the ground because they could no longer see because of cloud,wern`t they taught to stay away from cloud?

 

How many have crashed trying to get back to the runway because the engine failed on take off ? wern`t they taught to land straight ahead and not to turn more than 30 degrees left or right?,of course they were.

 

How many have hit power lines?,one of my students did,I considered him to be a very good pilot,he crashed in front of his family who was driving down the road,I was devistated,I didn`t teach him to fly at that height,he`s sadly missed by me and his wife and children.

 

I could go on for far too long as I know of far too many however finaly it is up to the individual to to maintain a SAFETY CULTURE, no system will ever be able to.

 

SAFETY CULTURE starts and ends with YOU.

 

Frank.

 

 

[Kelvin]

Frank, this is very thoughtful and mostly from the heart. The sort of feedback we need to keep in mind when we have to reveal our fall-back decision making position when things are not going according to plan. Now I'm going to read all your other posts. Very much appreciated. Kelvin.

 

 

[Kelvin]

Thanks Paul, www.sportys.com has the sort of DVD's I'm looking for. My new CFI agrees that using them interactively with family should help alleviate the fear of the unknown. My wife has been quoted as saying I'm very careful in what I do, so that's a positive. Again, my CFI advised me that the DVD's will show some flying techniques we do differently and he will explain why.

 

I'm taking all good advice 'on-board' including the warnings and reservations.

 

Kelvin (with a long way to go).

 

 

[Flyer]

There are old pilots and there are bold pilots. There are few, if any, old bold pilots.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It is up to you to work out which category you fit in.

 

The above contributors all make good points.

 

A superior pilot exercises his superior judgement so he does not have to demonstrate his superior skill.

 

Regards

 

Phil

 

 

[Kelvin]

Neville, (Wife's confidence)

 

Thanks for outlining how it all comes together for you. That's where I'd like to be. My wife went looking for BAK CD's and DVD's for me on ebay yesterday. That's getting involved, is it not?

 

Kelvin (with a long way to go, but enjoying it all the same)

 

 

[Kelvin]

Thanks Phil, (old v bold pilots)

 

Yep, your right. Contributors to this thread have given me a shot-in-the-arm at a pivotal point that goes from dreaming to waking up to some more "clear prop".

 

Kelvin (with a long way to go and clear sky's ahead)

 

 

[Kelvin]

Pilot Error

 

Thanks ab0676,

 

I get your point about every pilot being a safety officer when it comes to doing the right things in the air all the time. In this stream there have been expressions of dissapointments with pilot error, like flying too low near powerlines and trying to turn back to the runway with takeoff engine failure.

 

I have come to believe in the percentages of incident causes attributed to behaviour as you mentioned. But, with the benefit of 30 years as a safety professional I know there is always an enviromental and a design cause element associated with that behaviour. I suppose we tend to accept the behavioural element on its own and close the case.

 

Like you, I'd like to think every pilot wants to know what the design and enviromental causes are before accepting a control measure. Does that make reasonable sense to you?

 

Kelvin (with a long way to go)

 

 

[bushpilot]

S. happens..

 

Slightly off topic, but I too think of safety all the time, but the one thing that seems to be somewhat out of our control - and worries me a lot - is weather - and specifically cloud.

 

With the best planning in the world -weather checks and visual - the cloud situation will regularly change - literally before your very eyes - and against the forecast for that day. You can be flying over patchy cloud, which then starts to close in; you do a u-turn and it is still closed in; you fly along praying for a break - and usually find it. But one day the break will not come.

 

Or you are flying 5000 ASL with cloud at 7000. As you travel along, cloud base comes down to 5000. You are only 2000 AGL, so you look for a way out or around or back. But one day there will be no out / around / back. (A common event in my neck of the woods - with my strip at 3000 ASL).

 

So what do we do as Rec Aviation pilots - with little or no IFR experience? Sit on the ground and only fly on clear-to-the-horizon days? :confused:

 

 

[farri]

Bushpilot,

 

Better to be down here wishing you were up there,than to be up there wishing you were down here.

 

Frank.

 

 

[farri]

Kelvin,

 

Can you please explain what you mean by ,Enviromental and design element.

 

Frank.

 

 

[Kelvin]

Frank (farri) that's a straight question and I guess you knew the answer could not be the same. :ah_oh:

 

Let's consider Chris's (bush pilot) cloud concern and he decides not to push on through the clouds and selects a freshly plowed level paddock to land in. Thats rather than the surrounding paddocks with grass tussocks and hidden rocks he had just noticed. On touchdown one wheel collapses and the A/C slews a litle and then stops OK.

 

It would be reasonable to say the pilot made the right decision and had he not, the outcome could have been far worse. It could also be fair to say that whatever caused the wheel to collapse, cauld have also flipped the A/C, ignited and incinerated the occupants. The point is we need to consider all three cause elements regardless of the incident outcome i.e.,

 

DESIGN: Wheels unsuitable for rough terrain (you can think of more to do with wheel failure)

 

ENVIRONMENT: Low cloud cover, no clear and even landing surfaces, unpredictable weather (you can think of more)

 

BEHAVIOUR: Responded to training and experience givng due regard to the immediate circumstances and lmited options. If there was sufficient fuel the pilot could have stayed airborne longer in the hope an opening appears in the cloud (again you can think of more). I guess the point here is these elements are always there. Sometimes we have to drill-down to find them, but find them all we must. I could go on but hopefully this is sufficient to answers the question.

 

Kelvin (with a long way to go)

 

 

[Kelvin]

Thanks Paul,

 

Reading the report would probably help me rationalise how an experiensed CFI could still become exposed to an out-of-control 4000 feet dive. Are thse reports readily available, do you know?

 

Kelvin (with a long way to go and some 'rough' ground to cover, it seams)

 

 

[shafs64]

Hi

 

here is the web site you can do a search but it would help if you had the rego of the aircraft that went down.

 

Paul

 

http://www.atsb.gov.au/index.aspx