ADSB Grant Skyecho 2 etc

[NT5224]

I just received my skyecho unit. Will apply for rebate this weekend

 

Alan

[SGM]

Here is my experience with the SkyEcho so far... might be helpful if you are considering one..

• received my unit 3 days after ordering (btw it's marginally cheaper to get it direct from UAvionix than the RAAus "special price")
• filled in the Grant form (I put down business my ABN otherwise the grant gets reported to the ATO as personal income!)
• setup is pretty easy.. basically your Ipad/tablet/phone will connect to a Wifi called SkyEcho, and the in Avplan the other traffic will appear green (rather than blue arrows) [presumably similar on Ozpilot]
• this of course means if you use a wifi-only tablet as I do, you will have to choose between the ADS-B SkyEcho traffic OR the internet-based Avplan traffic.  If your device has a sim card, you can have both at the same time (assuming you are in mobile coverage)
• from the ground it seems to pickup aircraft at 20nm range all the time, and often up to 40nm out.  Interestingly the green ADS-B SkyEcho representation seems 1-3 nm infront of the blue internet-based Avplan.  This is something I wanted because recently I had some (helpful) Melbourne Centre "proximity warning" and then sighted the aircraft much closer than Avplan had indicated.
• As I have an RAAus aircraft I needed to email [email protected] and ask for a Hex code to put for your aircraft - got a same day reply after I supplied some details.
• The protocol for the ADS-B "call sign" for RAAUs aircraft is R1234 (where 1234 is your RAAus registration eg 24-1234)
• The unit requires 2.5A to USB charge, which lasts 12 hours.. so most aircraft will not have enough amps to charge from a 12V USB plug, and hence you either need to bring it home to charge, or take out a decent powerbank if you leave it in the aircraft

[kgwilson]

Uavionix $1020.00, Mendelssohn $1,095.00. Both include shipping..

[Blueadventures]

54 minutes ago, SGM said:

Here is my experience with the SkyEcho so far... might be helpful if you are considering one..

• received my unit 3 days after ordering (btw it's marginally cheaper to get it direct from UAvionix than the RAAus "special price")
• filled in the Grant form (I put down business my ABN otherwise the grant gets reported to the ATO as personal income!)
• setup is pretty easy.. basically your Ipad/tablet/phone will connect to a Wifi called SkyEcho, and the in Avplan the other traffic will appear green (rather than blue arrows) [presumably similar on Ozpilot]
• this of course means if you use a wifi-only tablet as I do, you will have to choose between the ADS-B SkyEcho traffic OR the internet-based Avplan traffic.  If your device has a sim card, you can have both at the same time (assuming you are in mobile coverage)
• from the ground it seems to pickup aircraft at 20nm range all the time, and often up to 40nm out.  Interestingly the green ADS-B SkyEcho representation seems 1-3 nm infront of the blue internet-based Avplan.  This is something I wanted because recently I had some (helpful) Melbourne Centre "proximity warning" and then sighted the aircraft much closer than Avplan had indicated.
• As I have an RAAus aircraft I needed to email [email protected] and ask for a Hex code to put for your aircraft - got a same day reply after I supplied some details.
• The protocol for the ADS-B "call sign" for RAAUs aircraft is R1234 (where 1234 is your RAAus registration eg 24-1234)
• The unit requires 2.5A to USB charge, which lasts 12 hours.. so most aircraft will not have enough amps to charge from a 12V USB plug, and hence you either need to bring it home to charge, or take out a decent powerbank if you leave it in the aircraft

Do they have a suitable usb 5 volt converter.  Jay car sell a 3 amp single outlet usb that can plug into cigarette lighter type outlet.  Maybe a noisy unit that requires some after purchase mod.  I did a dual 2.1amp usb with RF's info and its good now.  Bit fiddly to solder the capacitors onto two of the 4 positions.

[Neil_S]

19 hours ago, SGM said:

Here is my experience with the SkyEcho so far... might be helpful if you are considering one..

•  
• from the ground it seems to pickup aircraft at 20nm range all the time, and often up to 40nm out.  Interestingly the green ADS-B SkyEcho representation seems 1-3 nm infront of the blue internet-based Avplan.  This is something I wanted because recently I had some (helpful) Melbourne Centre "proximity warning" and then sighted the aircraft much closer than Avplan had indicated.
•  

Hi SGM,

 

I have also noticed this, and it is to be expected as the ADSB-IN is direct from the other aircraft, whereas the AVPlan paint is rebroadcast from ground stations, so depending on how good the connection is there will be a delay. Both AVPlan and OZRunways do point this out, and they both recommend a proper ADSB-IN to get the best information. 

 

Cheers,

Neil

[lee-wave]

Adding my own experience on Skyecho2.

 

1) The GPS engine is not the best . Frequent drop out while the Huawei cellphone stays locked on.

2) SE recommend it be mounted facing forward and upright. This means it will only transmit and receive in a roughly semicircular arc from SE forward.

3) This was confirmed by Farnborough radar when I asked if they could see my conspicuity squawk 7000 while I circled over my home strip. Primary radar showed a continuous return but SE 7000 transmit dropped out when the Jab was facing away from Farnborough. My thoughts are when two aircraft are equipped with fully operational SE ,  if one aircraft is coming up directly behind another neither will see each other on SE.

4) A USB charger on the aircraft will only slow down the rate of discharge.

5) You set the aircraft stall speed...SE only becomes active when the aircraft has a groundspeed greater then the stall speed....but I think that 7000 continuously transmits even while stationery on the ground.

6) Flying in my area I have only seen one aircraft tracking in the opposite direction well away from my track.  SE say that the algorithm will only give a warning when two aircraft are quite close together and that if continuing on the same tracks a collision may occur.  I still do not know if  SE determines the difference in height.

7) Still worth picking one up with the rebate scheme.

 

Will write more of my experience in the month to come... cheers from the UK officially in drought condition....

Edited August 27, 2022 by lee-wave

[Old Koreelah]

2 hours ago, lee-wave said:

2) SE recommend it be mounted facing forward and upright. This means it will only transmit and receive in a roughly semicircular arc from SE forward.

Missed that instruction. Mine normally gets tossed into a pocket near my right elbow. It picks up lots of distant traffic and at least one pilot saw it from 20+ nm.

 

That directionality would require I use its suction mount- can’t see it sticking to my curved plastic canopy.
Might have to find a spot on the panel, away from the compass.

[Garfly]

5 hours ago, lee-wave said:

Adding my own experience on Skyecho2.

 

1) The GPS engine is not the best . Frequent drop out while the Huawei cellphone stays locked on.

2) SE recommend it be mounted facing forward and upright. This means it will only transmit and receive in a roughly semicircular arc from SE forward.

3) This was confirmed by Farnborough radar when I asked if they could see my conspicuity squawk 7000 while I circled over my home strip. Primary radar showed a continuous return but SE 7000 transmit dropped out when the Jab was facing away from Farnborough. My thoughts are when two aircraft are equipped with fully operational SE ,  if one aircraft is coming up directly behind another neither will see each other on SE.

4) A USB charger on the aircraft will only slow down the rate of discharge.

5) You set the aircraft stall speed...SE only becomes active when the aircraft has a groundspeed greater then the stall speed....but I think that 7000 continuously transmits even while stationery on the ground.

6) Flying in my area I have only seen one aircraft tracking in the opposite direction well away from my track.  SE say that the algorithm will only give a warning when two aircraft are quite close together and that if continuing on the same tracks a collision may occur.  I still do not know if  SE determines the difference in height.

7) Still worth picking one up with the rebate scheme.

 

Will write more of my experience in the month to come... cheers from the UK officially in drought condition....

Lee-wave, I'm not too sure about some of the conclusions you've drawn from your experiences with the SkyEcho2, so far.

 

1) The GPS engine is not the best . Frequent drop out while the Huawei cellphone stays locked on.

 

Really? So far, I've found the SE2 GPS to be rock solid. What kind of testing brought you to this conclusion; were you able to differentiate between 'GPS engine' problems and issues with the SkyEcho talking to your tablet ?  In any case, as you point out, the user manual stresses that mounting is important. Any GPS receiver (without an external aerial) needs a good clear view of the sky.

 

2) SE recommend it be mounted facing forward and upright. This means it will only transmit and receive in a roughly semicircular arc from SE forward.

3) This was confirmed by Farnborough radar when I asked if they could see my conspicuity squawk 7000 while I circled over my home strip. Primary radar showed a continuous return but SE 7000 transmit dropped out when the Jab was facing away from Farnborough. My thoughts are when two aircraft are equipped with fully operational SE ,  if one aircraft is coming up directly behind another neither will see each other on SE.

 

To me, those mounting suggestions mean that the device will transmit and receive optimally in that way. I suppose a lot also depends on the aircraft type and build materials etc. Anyway, the primary idea of the SE2's OUT function is to create a medium-range, aircraft-to-aircraft bubble of conspicuity.  And even if, with a sub-optimal set-up, say, that bubble is reduced to, say, 10 miles, it'll still probably be able to do its main job. It seems to me that your speculation that two SE equipped aircraft - one coming up directly behind the other - would be mutually invisible is unfounded and unlikely.  However, if you manage to put your thoughts to the test, then I think we'd be all ears. 

Actually, your Farnborough radar experiment is interesting but it'd help to know, among other parameters, just how far your home strip is from the relevant receiver.  In Australia, aviation officialdom has been reticent regarding how visible EC devices are - or will be - to ATC, even within range.  I, for one, keep hanging out for clarification on that point. (By the way, 7000 is not the standard VFR code in Oz - it's 1200).  Again, out here, EC devices are mainly seen as an aid to self-separation among and between aircraft of all types - independent of ATC, and, for that matter, of any ground based gear, including cell towers.

 

4) A USB charger on the aircraft will only slow down the rate of discharge.

 

Sure, but with a 10-12 hour battery life, that's not going to be a problem for most amateur flyers.  I think the idea is that you don't need to hook the thing up to anything, thus avoiding further clutter.  Anyway, many tablet devices have the same issue.  If you're flying around the world, though, you will definitely need to carry a few extra power bricks. 

 

5) You set the aircraft stall speed...SE only becomes active when the aircraft has a groundspeed greater then the stall speed....but I think that 7000 continuously transmits even while stationery on the ground.

 

What makes you think that?  I kind of doubt it.  Anyway, I sure hope not since I'm often messing around with mine at home.  No knocks on the door, yet, from concerned and cranky SAR crews.  ;- )

 

6) Flying in my area I have only seen one aircraft tracking in the opposite direction well away from my track.  SE say that the algorithm will only give a warning when two aircraft are quite close together and that if continuing on the same tracks a collision may occur.  I still do not know if  SE determines the difference in height.

 

I really don't know what you mean by this.  I can't find any information about warning algorithms incorporated into SkyEcho2.  Could you point me to the relevant documentation?  But as to whether the SE2 shows the relative altitudes (and trends) of ADSB targets it displays: yes it can, and does. 

 

7) Still worth picking one up with the rebate scheme.

 

I agree, even without a rebate.  The more users, the more useful.    ;- )

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 27, 2022 by Garfly

[walrus]

I can’t see how to get a grant to upgrade to a Dynon GPS 2020. A successful grant requires certification by an authorised person that the installation is approved and certifies compliance.

 

As a home builder I can’t do that and I’m not sure I can find someone who will do it. Furthermore will they certify for a Dynon system?

[Blueadventures]

7 hours ago, Garfly said:

Lee-wave, I'm not too sure about some of the conclusions you've drawn from your experiences with the SkyEcho2, so far.

 

1) The GPS engine is not the best . Frequent drop out while the Huawei cellphone stays locked on.

 

Really? So far, I've found the SE2 GPS to be rock solid. What kind of testing brought you to this conclusion; were you able to differentiate between 'GPS engine' problems and issues with the SkyEcho talking to your tablet ?  In any case, as you point out, the user manual stresses that mounting is important. Any GPS receiver (without an external aerial) needs a good clear view of the sky.

 

2) SE recommend it be mounted facing forward and upright. This means it will only transmit and receive in a roughly semicircular arc from SE forward.

3) This was confirmed by Farnborough radar when I asked if they could see my conspicuity squawk 7000 while I circled over my home strip. Primary radar showed a continuous return but SE 7000 transmit dropped out when the Jab was facing away from Farnborough. My thoughts are when two aircraft are equipped with fully operational SE ,  if one aircraft is coming up directly behind another neither will see each other on SE.

 

To me, those mounting suggestions mean that the device will transmit and receive optimally in that way. I suppose a lot also depends on the aircraft type and build materials etc. Anyway, the primary idea of the SE2's OUT function is to create a medium-range, aircraft-to-aircraft bubble of conspicuity.  And even if, with a sub-optimal set-up, say, that bubble is reduced to, say, 10 miles, it'll still probably be able to do its main job. It seems to me that your speculation that two SE equipped aircraft - one coming up directly behind the other - would be mutually invisible is unfounded and unlikely.  However, if you manage to put your thoughts to the test, then I think we'd be all ears. 

Actually, your Farnborough radar experiment is interesting but it'd help to know, among other parameters, just how far your home strip is from the relevant receiver.  In Australia, aviation officialdom has been reticent regarding how visible EC devices are - or will be - to ATC, even within range.  I, for one, keep hanging out for clarification on that point. (By the way, 7000 is not the standard VFR code in Oz - it's 1200).  Again, out here, EC devices are mainly seen as an aid to self-separation among and between aircraft of all types - independent of ATC, and, for that matter, of any ground based gear, including cell towers.

 

4) A USB charger on the aircraft will only slow down the rate of discharge.

 

Sure, but with a 10-12 hour battery life, that's not going to be a problem for most amateur flyers.  I think the idea is that you don't need to hook the thing up to anything, thus avoiding further clutter.  Anyway, many tablet devices have the same issue.  If you're flying around the world, though, you will definitely need to carry a few extra power bricks. 

 

5) You set the aircraft stall speed...SE only becomes active when the aircraft has a groundspeed greater then the stall speed....but I think that 7000 continuously transmits even while stationery on the ground.

 

What makes you think that?  I kind of doubt it.  Anyway, I sure hope not since I'm often messing around with mine at home.  No knocks on the door, yet, from concerned and cranky SAR crews.  ;- ) to charge the 

 

6) Flying in my area I have only seen one aircraft tracking in the opposite direction well away from my track.  SE say that the algorithm will only give a warning when two aircraft are quite close together and that if continuing on the same tracks a collision may occur.  I still do not know if  SE determines the difference in height.

 

I really don't know what you mean by this.  I can't find any information about warning algorithms incorporated into SkyEcho2.  Could you point me to the relevant documentation?  But as to whether the SE2 shows the relative altitudes (and trends) of ADSB targets it displays: yes it can, and does. 

 

7) Still worth picking one up with the rebate scheme.

 

I agree, even without a rebate.  The more users, the more useful.    ;- )

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I can see a definite need of an aircraft power supply to charge or keep the unit's internal battery charge topped up; as when on overnight or longer trips it may be inconvenient to charge the unit.

 

I see there are plugin USB 5 volt outlets that are rated 3A so will work if they require 2.5A (I have not read the required charge or working AMP draw in info I have read.)

 

At this stage I am not going to purchase or apply to the grant.  It seems meeting the requirement of authorised fitting cost would exceed the $500 or so of the grant (am I correct in thinking this way.)  Our LAME at Mackay absolutely hates RAA aircraft and anything connected to them.  I have commented that it will be interesting when RAA 760Kg comes in and they have to be maintained by LAME.  I have got on ok with him in past and his opinion seems to be from what he has seen with missed servicing and poor servicing of RAA fleet aircraft and the owner maintenance done.

 

[Garfly]

20 minutes ago, Blueadventures said:

I can see a definite need of an aircraft power supply to charge or keep the unit's internal battery charge topped up; as when on overnight or longer trips it may be inconvenient to charge the unit.

 

I see there are plugin USB 5 volt outlets that are rated 3A so will work if they require 2.5A (I have not read the required charge or working AMP draw in info I have read.)

 

At this stage I am not going to purchase or apply to the grant.  It seems meeting the requirement of authorised fitting cost would exceed the $500 or so of the grant (am I correct in thinking this way.)  Our LAME at Mackay absolutely hates RAA aircraft and anything connected to them.  I have commented that it will be interesting when RAA 760Kg comes in and they have to be maintained by LAME.  I have got on ok with him in past and his opinion seems to be from what he has seen with missed servicing and poor servicing of RAA fleet aircraft and the owner maintenance done.

 

True, Mike, it could come in handy at times.  However, if you're running a tablet and perhaps a phone as well - on top of all the installed electrics - might you not start to run out of the 912's willingness to give?   (Although some seem to have no problem running two big Dynon screens these days.)

Anyway, since the SE2 is an (approved) portable device, no installation is necessary, right? 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 27, 2022 by Garfly

[kgwilson]

I have a 3.5 amp x 5 volt USB power supply and my power outlet (cigarette lighter type) is connected directly to my battery (I did this when building to enable my solar system to keep the battery charged when in the hangar) so no issues with charging in flight if ever necessary. I also have a 20 watt power bank with a 60 watt USB-C cable. Most modern tech items like phones & tablets have fast charging capability so 2.5 amp requirement is pretty basic now.

 

Just submitted my application No 244.

[Garfly]

If your SE2 does run out of puff (or you just don't have one) and you're flying within cell tower range, you can still fall back onto the poor man's ADSB-IN solution - internet based traffic.  I believe AvPlan already displays ADSB-exchange traffic - as well as FLARM for gliders.   But OzRwys can do the same if you run the independent AvTraffic app in the background.  AvT is able to share its info with OzRwys (premium versions of each might be required).

 

CLICK IMAGE FOR MAX REZ:

 

P.S:  This image shows the two apps together in Split View on the iPad which is why the sharing is happening even with AvT in Standby (as shown). To work in the background it needs to be in Active mode.

 

 

 

Edited August 27, 2022 by Garfly

[Blueadventures]

29 minutes ago, kgwilson said:

I have a 3.5 amp x 5 volt USB power supply and my power outlet (cigarette lighter type) is connected directly to my battery (I did this when building to enable my solar system to keep the battery charged when in the hangar) so no issues with charging in flight if ever necessary. I also have a 20 watt power bank with a 60 watt USB-C cable. Most modern tech items like phones & tablets have fast charging capability so 2.5 amp requirement is pretty basic now.

 

Just submitted my application No 244.

Hi KG  Is your 3.5 a plugin unit to a cigarette type 12v socket or a panel mounted unit?

[kgwilson]

2 hours ago, Blueadventures said:

Hi KG  Is your 3.5 a plugin unit to a cigarette type 12v socket or a panel mounted unit?

Yes. Don't buy a cheap one though as I did originally as the interference made the radio virtually unusable. Also don't just use a basic USB-C cable. These will only carry about 1.5 amps of current. A good quality Baseus 100W USB-C cable only costs about $8.00 from Ebay. You can buy panel mount USB C outlets with more than 5 amp (25W) output. Good ones cost around $40.00 or so but I have no idea whether they interfere with the radio or not.

Edited August 28, 2022 by kgwilson

[Neil_S]

6 hours ago, Blueadventures said:

 

At this stage I am not going to purchase or apply to the grant.  It seems meeting the requirement of authorised fitting cost would exceed the $500 or so of the grant (am I correct in thinking this way.)

 

 

Hi Blueadventures,

 

Not sure where you get the figure of $500.  From the gov't website :-

 

"Up to $5,000 per eligible aircraft covering up to 50% of eligible project expenditure. Only one grant per aircraft and per device is permitted."

 

HTH

Neil

[Blueadventures]

30 minutes ago, Neil_S said:

 

Hi Blueadventures,

 

Not sure where you get the figure of $500.  From the gov't website :-

 

"Up to $5,000 per eligible aircraft covering up to 50% of eligible project expenditure. Only one grant per aircraft and per device is permitted."

 

HTH

Neil

Just working off SE2 price around $1,020 ea

[Neil_S]

55 minutes ago, Blueadventures said:

Just working off SE2 price around $1,020 ea

 

Hi Blueadventures,

 

Forgive me if I have misinterpreted what you were saying, but you seemed to imply that fitting costs could exceed the rebate. However, if you had a full-blown ADSB system installed which would include being hooked up to an existing GPS by an avionics guy, for example, then you would still get back half the installation costs up to $5000. 

But a Skyecho installation consists of attaching a suction cup to a side window in the cockpit (took me less than 2 minutes) - then you're good to go. So it is classed as a portable device and there is no rebate for any installation costs, so you would just get back around $500 of the $1000 cost of the device.

Hope this clarifies.

Cheers,

Neil

Edited August 28, 2022 by Neil_S

[Blueadventures]

2 hours ago, Neil_S said:

 

Hi Blueadventures,

 

Forgive me if I have misinterpreted what you were saying, but you seemed to imply that fitting costs could exceed the rebate. However, if you had a full-blown ADSB system installed which would include being hooked up to an existing GPS by an avionics guy, for example, then you would still get back half the installation costs up to $5000. 

But a Skyecho installation consists of attaching a suction cup to a side window in the cockpit (took me less than 2 minutes) - then you're good to go. So it is classed as a portable device and there is no rebate for any installation costs, so you would just get back around $500 of the $1000 cost of the device.

Hope this clarifies.

Cheers,

Neil

All good Neil; I was just asking a question.  Just checking if there was to be a check that the portable unit is mounted correctly.

 

I was in gliding when the Flarm units were introduced and they could be mounted incorrectly and impair performance  (eg in a metal glider could be mounted with antenna upright and next to a canopy frame (aluminium) and it would shield / reduce markedly performance.  I am watching the development and performance of the equipment.  Best Regards.

Edited August 28, 2022 by Blueadventures

[rgmwa]

18 hours ago, walrus said:

I can’t see how to get a grant to upgrade to a Dynon GPS 2020. A successful grant requires certification by an authorised person that the installation is approved and certifies compliance.

 

As a home builder I can’t do that and I’m not sure I can find someone who will do it. Furthermore will they certify for a Dynon system?

Did you get an answer on this? I also have a Dynon and would be doing the installation myself as the aircraft builder, 

[kgwilson]

I don't think you could invoice yourself but you could still apply for the grant on the basis of the purchase cost alone IMO. If the unit purchased would need installation there is probably no ability in the system to not specify installation unless you put in the installation cost as zero & therefore you would have no invoice to upload. Worth a try. You can get a fair way through the application process before you are required to upload invoices.

 

The application for a Skyecho2 does not have input fields related to installation costs because there aren't any.

[rgmwa]

It would be shortsighted if they knocked back home builders from the hardware rebate because they couldn’t produce an invoice for the installation, but it is the government after all so anything’s possible. They may think that someone could buy the gear, get the rebate and then sell it at a profit. An invoice and certification would prove it had been installed. 

[kgwilson]

I just read the manual regarding charging & the unit is not PD compliant which means you cannot use a USB-C PD (Power Delivery) charging cable so need to use a USB-A to USB-C cable that complies with the QC3 (Quick Charge 3) standard with a minimum output of 2.5 amps which is only 12.5 watts. Uavionix recommend using a charger with at least 18 watts output so that means a 3.6 amp output QC3 charging device. There are plenty available on line that plug in to a cigarette type power outlet, some dual QC3 & PD. The problem is making sure that the adaptor does not interfere with the radio or other electronics while you are flying. You won't know till you try it.

[Blueadventures]

8 hours ago, kgwilson said:

I just read the manual regarding charging & the unit is not PD compliant which means you cannot use a USB-C PD (Power Delivery) charging cable so need to use a USB-A to USB-C cable that complies with the QC3 (Quick Charge 3) standard with a minimum output of 2.5 amps which is only 12.5 watts. Uavionix recommend using a charger with at least 18 watts output so that means a 3.6 amp output QC3 charging device. There are plenty available on line that plug in to a cigarette type power outlet, some dual QC3 & PD. The problem is making sure that the adaptor does not interfere with the radio or other electronics while you are flying. You won't know till you try it.

Not sure re watts required. On a 12 volt system 18W would be 1.5A and 12.5W would be just over 1A.  Therefore a 2.4A Supply will be enough?

[kgwilson]

1 hour ago, Blueadventures said:

Not sure re watts required. On a 12 volt system 18W would be 1.5A and 12.5W would be just over 1A.  Therefore a 2.4A Supply will be enough?

It is the output voltage x output amps that determines watts. Output from the charger is around 5 volts so needs 3.6 amps to provide 18watts. i.e. 5 x 3.6 = 18.