Collision Avoidance

[Roundsounds]

Just curious as to how many people use a note pad and pen to record traffic info’? 
Also wondering if / how building a mental

picture of traffic around airfields is currently being trained and whether traffic information systems are included in any training? In particular how the systems operate and any limitations associated with them. 

[Bosi72]

At the early stages, with instructor, you will be focused on flying only, however as  progressing, you will start listening more and start building mental picture.

 

Just repeat it to yourself, e.g. foxbat on base, cessna joining xwind, seneca just took off, and try finding them visually at their positions. Good airmanship is when you acknowledge that you have them all visual.  Writing down, or generally heads/eyes down is a distraction and also pointless as in the next 15 seconds they will be at different positions, then you'll have to update notes.. 

 

You can start practice building mental picture from your home by going to e.g. www.liveatc.net or similar straming channels.

Also playing board/memory/card games, solving math problems helps with improving  memory.

Be patient and keep practicing.  

[Mike Gearon]

I think it’s taught but you’re overwhelmed with everything else going on in the learning process. I’m 3 years into my flying and early days I’d be in the car and pretend the intersection coming up had wind and landing directions along with traffic to remember. 
 

I’ve just purchased this

 

https://uavionix.com/products/pingusb/#416120cea4ad7a2c9 Brings in UAT 978 and 1090 but not weather.

 

In the USA I have Sentry. It’s ADSB into ForeFlight, USA weather  along with CO2 monitoring. Not compatible with AvPlan unfortunately.

 

Looking forward to getting it and adding to AVPlan aircraft  picture of the surrounding airspace as an adjunct to listening and building a traffic picture.

 

This product no doubt keeps going once you leave mobile coverage. I’ve just learned something while looking up how Avplan brings data in…..Cellular are blue and ADSB receiver green. 
 

from avplan….

 

Our cellular based traffic system, AvPlan Live, also includes feeds from ground based ADSB and FLARM receivers. Traffic received by these  ground units is also displayed on AvPlan EFB. If you also have an ADSB-in receiver, the traffic via the attached device will replace that received from the ground.

Traffic targets in AvPlan EFB show aircraft callsigns (where available), current altitude and groundspeed. The altitude has an arrow indicating if the target is climbing or descending.

The velocity vector indicates the position that the target will be located at in 1 minute in the future.

Targets via cellular are blue, and targets via an attached ADSB receiver are green.

Targets are not displayed if the data for the target is older than 90 seconds.

To summarise, there is no one affordable solution which will provide full coverage;

[Roundsounds]

5 hours ago, Bosi72 said:

At the early stages, with instructor, you will be focused on flying only, however as  progressing, you will start listening more and start building mental picture.

 

Just repeat it to yourself, e.g. foxbat on base, cessna joining xwind, seneca just took off, and try finding them visually at their positions. Good airmanship is when you acknowledge that you have them all visual.  Writing down, or generally heads/eyes down is a distraction and also pointless as in the next 15 seconds they will be at different positions, then you'll have to update notes.. 

 

You can start practice building mental picture from your home by going to e.g. www.liveatc.net or similar straming channels.

Also playing board/memory/card games, solving math problems helps with improving  memory.

Be patient and keep practicing.  

How do you remember the call signs for each aircraft if you want to call them?

[Roundsounds]

5 hours ago, Mike Gearon said:

I think it’s taught but you’re overwhelmed with everything else going on in the learning process. I’m 3 years into my flying and early days I’d be in the car and pretend the intersection coming up had wind and landing directions along with traffic to remember. 
 

I’ve just purchased this

 

https://uavionix.com/products/pingusb/#416120cea4ad7a2c9 Brings in UAT 978 and 1090 but not weather.

 

In the USA I have Sentry. It’s ADSB into ForeFlight, USA weather  along with CO2 monitoring. Not compatible with AvPlan unfortunately.

 

Looking forward to getting it and adding to AVPlan aircraft  picture of the surrounding airspace as an adjunct to listening and building a traffic picture.

 

This product no doubt keeps going once you leave mobile coverage. I’ve just learned something while looking up how Avplan brings data in…..Cellular are blue and ADSB receiver green. 
 

from avplan….

 

Our cellular based traffic system, AvPlan Live, also includes feeds from ground based ADSB and FLARM receivers. Traffic received by these  ground units is also displayed on AvPlan EFB. If you also have an ADSB-in receiver, the traffic via the attached device will replace that received from the ground.

Traffic targets in AvPlan EFB show aircraft callsigns (where available), current altitude and groundspeed. The altitude has an arrow indicating if the target is climbing or descending.

The velocity vector indicates the position that the target will be located at in 1 minute in the future.

Targets via cellular are blue, and targets via an attached ADSB receiver are green.

Targets are not displayed if the data for the target is older than 90 seconds.

To summarise, there is no one affordable solution which will provide full coverage;

Do you receive any training on the appropriate use of ADSB devices? When I say training I mean technical and human factors type training? Or do you just work it out as you go?

Edited April 13, 2022 by Roundsounds

[Old Koreelah]

2 hours ago, Roundsounds said:

How do you remember the call signs for each aircraft if you want to call them?

OzRunways’ scratchpad is quite useful for that.

[Bosi72]

10 hours ago, Roundsounds said:

How do you remember the call signs for each aircraft if you want to call them?

Normally you'd be calling only an aircraft that you are worried about, for example you are climbing and about to turn crosswind after takeoff in a high wing aircraft, then you hear someone is joining crosswind.. It is sufficient to say "aircraft joining crosswind I am about to turn crosswind at 500ft, do you have me visual? " or something similar. 

Even better if you know the aircraft type, therefore you will say e.g. "airturer joining crosswind, etc .. ", 

or even better if you remembered a callsign e.g. "ABC joining crosswind... etc"

It all comes with practice and time..

[Roundsounds]

30 minutes ago, Bosi72 said:

Normally you'd be calling only an aircraft that you are worried about, for example you are climbing and about to turn crosswind after takeoff in a high wing aircraft, then you hear someone is joining crosswind.. It is sufficient to say "aircraft joining crosswind I am about to turn crosswind at 500ft, do you have me visual? " or something similar. 

Even better if you know the aircraft type, therefore you will say e.g. "airturer joining crosswind, etc .. ", 

or even better if you remembered a callsign e.g. "ABC joining crosswind... etc"

It all comes with practice and time..

In this example you’re saying the first you knew of the traffic was when they broadcast their crosswind entry? Wouldn’t you have heard their 10 mile inbound call with an estimate for the circuit!

[APenNameAndThatA]

14 hours ago, Roundsounds said:

How do you remember the call signs for each aircraft if you want to call them?

You can call them with the info you do remember. I would not bother with writing down their callsigns. (Disclaimer: I have 168 hrs.) 

[turboplanner]

2 hours ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

You can call them with the info you do remember. I would not bother with writing down their callsigns. (Disclaimer: I have 168 hrs.) 

No need for the disclaimer; this applies from your first solo. If you have the type of brain that easily remembers little details like that and retain them its not an issue; if the callsign falls out of your memory you need to write it down on the back of your hand if necessary. This procedurepays off when you are receiving rapid and repeated instructions from a very busy tower.

 

[Bosi72]

6 hours ago, Roundsounds said:

In this example you’re saying the first you knew of the traffic was when they broadcast their crosswind entry? Wouldn’t you have heard their 10 mile inbound call with an estimate for the circuit!

Depending on aircraft, in average 6 mins before takeoff you will be focused on run ups, listening your mags and not worry about 10nm inbound. However great that if you could remember them. Regardless, join crosswind is not common way of joining ccts, therefore you have to act promptly.

 

Some people are audio, other are visual, use whatever you can.

Also, combination of noise, poor radios/audio panels/headsets, isn't helping, therefore use all information that you have.

 

With regards to question "how", first thing that you remember will be training aircrafts from your school, then other schools, then some people fly more than others.

Again, if you can get a handheld radio and listen on the ground, and build mental picture who is where, that would be good practice.

You won't have time to write down traffic when in the aircraft.

 

And finally, radios are not mandatory by the law, some radio calls are not mandatory,  sometimes are distraction (eg. ABC taxis to the fuel bowser). Keep your eyes outside.

Aviate-Navigate-Communicate is paramount, and in this particular order.

 

 

 

[Thruster88]

The crosswind join is very common either directly or after over flying. If in doubt call the other aircraft by name ie cessna or just make a broadcast.

[Garfly]

And they seem to be promoting the mid-field Crosswind join lately

presumably because it's less likely to conflict with departing traffic.

 

 

Source: CASA's AC91-10 v1.1 from late last year.

Click to expand.

 

[APenNameAndThatA]

2 hours ago, turboplanner said:

No need for the disclaimer; this applies from your first solo. If you have the type of brain that easily remembers little details like that and retain them its not an issue; if the callsign falls out of your memory you need to write it down on the back of your hand if necessary. This procedurepays off when you are receiving rapid and repeated instructions from a very busy tower.

 

Duly noted.

[skippydiesel]

On takeoff, you should never turn cross wind, before crossing the runway threshold.

On circuit arrival, you should never join any further down wind than abeam the runway threshold (better towards or at midfield).

 

The above two points will not only improve the ability of arriving/departing pilots to see traffic in their vicinity but will physically make it very unlikely that a conflict might occur.

 

Garfly's diagram illustrate this the best however Thrusters has additional information which is also very helpful.

 

Further Garflys' diagrammed shows circuit join from a number of locations - personally, with any more than 1-2 aircraft in the circuit, I would not do a  "extended down winds" ,  "straight in" or  "base leg"  As a pilot you not only have responsivity to observe the rules of the air but also to be courteous/considerate of other pilots - in a busy circuit joining from these points (pushing in to the flow of traffic) just adds, unnecessarily, to the stress that inexperienced pilots are under. Take the time to come in "over the top" (gives you a chance to see the whole drama from above) make a call letting all participants know where you are (easy for them  to find) what your intentions are (few minutes to digest) and join mid field.

[Bosi72]

14 hours ago, Thruster88 said:

The crosswind join is very common either directly or after over flying. If in doubt call the other aircraft by name ie cessna or just make a broadcast.

 

Are you saying that when you are joining a midfield crosswind, you only say e.g. "Thruster joining crosswind" ? 

 

The diagram above is outdated.

The current one is below.

 

 

 

 

[Thruster88]

I would say cowra traffic thruster 400 one mile west joining mid field cross wind runway 15 cowra.

[RFguy]

I'd usually join midfield crosswind at Cowra especially if it is busy  ... IMO, least possibility of conflict.  It provides for  'immersion' into the circuit traffic - once you are overhead midfield , you have a really good picture of everything, inc RWY condix and also downwind traffic, to slot yourself in with power adjustment, make deals with other pilots etc..... requires a bit of a dive from 1500 down to 1000 of course to join at circuit height, and consequent careful control of thrust.

 

I avoid joining on the crosswind-downwind  corner because its really hard for ops taking off to see where they are going, (usually climbing or in high task region of power, pitch, trim control) .... and also usually have their hands full with aircraft getting up to circuit height.

add the low sun into it, makes it more interesting, usually plenty of aircraft in circuit making it home by the last bit of the day ...

 

 

[Roundsounds]

Lots of comments about circuit entry, I’m keen to learn how people develop and maintain their situational awareness (SA) of other traffic? Or do you rely on updated SA when you make a broadcast and hope other traffic respond? 

[facthunter]

IF you don't get a response how do you know you are getting out?  Nev

[Garfly]

3 hours ago, Roundsounds said:

Lots of comments about circuit entry, I’m keen to learn how people develop and maintain their situational awareness (SA) of other traffic? Or do you rely on updated SA when you make a broadcast and hope other traffic respond? 

 

I think the best answer I can come up with is "as best one can." 

 

Actually, it's a difficult mental exercise to build an accurate (dynamic) picture of a busy circuit (even assuming incoming comms are clear, complete and accurate - quite a stretch.) And it's at a time when you're quite busy trying to avoid colliding with mother earth, yourself.  The skill requires practice.  Yet students are expected to get it right, right off the bat. And it's not only students; anyone used to a sleepy home-field can be caught short arriving at a fly-in, for example.  So yes, special training could be called for.

 

As has been suggested, hanging out at a busy strip with a handheld and observing the passing parade is a useful exercise. When I do this I'm often struck by how much chatter - and mind space - is wasted (re)assuring separation between aircraft who are actually miles apart and no factor at all. But up there, it's so easy to be spooked by the spectre of crashing into someone.  After all, you're very aware of your many blind spots - and the other limits of see-and-be-seen.  And radio talk doesn't always give us what we need for the job of building a traffic picture - relative to our own ship.

 

That's why I'm puzzled by so much knee-jerk resistance to ADSB solutions. A screen, at the merest glance, gives us a pre-made picture (relative to us); hardly any processing - or training - needed. Of course, we await universal take-up but even now we can have first class separation info from all commercial flights, at a minimum.

 

Maybe I shouldn't be puzzled, it took almost a generation for the obvious safety benefits of GPS to gain general acceptance. It took that long to overcome those early dire predictions of a descent into lazy GoTo nav practice. To me it's a form of ideology lag.

  

Anyway, Roundsounds, you're an experienced instructor, right.  Please tell us what you think.

 

How do you think the question should be answered?

 

 

Edited April 15, 2022 by Garfly

[Roundsounds]

2 hours ago, Garfly said:

 

I think the best answer I can come up with is "as best one can." 

 

Actually, it's a difficult mental exercise to build an accurate (dynamic) picture of a busy circuit (even assuming incoming comms are clear, complete and accurate - quite a stretch.) And it's at a time when you're quite busy trying to avoid colliding with mother earth, yourself.  The skill requires practice.  Yet students are expected to get it right, right off the bat. And it's not only students; anyone used to a sleepy home-field can be caught short arriving at a fly-in, for example.  So yes, special training could be called for.

 

As has been suggested, hanging out at a busy strip with a handheld and observing the passing parade is a useful exercise. When I do this I'm often struck by how much chatter - and mind space - is wasted (re)assuring separation between aircraft who are actually miles apart and no factor at all. But up there, it's so easy to be spooked by the spectre of crashing into someone.  After all, you're very aware of your many blind spots - and the other limits of see-and-be-seen.  And radio talk doesn't always give us what we need for the job of building a traffic picture - relative to our own ship.

 

That's why I'm puzzled by so much knee-jerk resistance to ADSB solutions. A screen, at the merest glance, gives us a pre-made picture (relative to us); hardly any processing - or training - needed. Of course, we await universal take-up but even now we can have first class separation info from all commercial flights, at a minimum.

 

Maybe I shouldn't be puzzled, it took almost a generation for the obvious safety benefits of GPS to gain general acceptance. It took that long to overcome those early dire predictions of a descent into lazy GoTo nav practice. To me it's a form of ideology lag.

  

Anyway, Roundsounds, you're an experienced instructor, right.  Please tell us what you think.

 

How do you think the question should be answered?

 

 

I’m trying to gauge what people are taught and practice in regards to collision avoidance. I’ve been out of the GA instructing scene for quite a few years. I still fly GA and note a big increase in what I would consider unnecessary RT in class G. I still jot down call signs / type, it’s how I was trained and continue to practice. I find it helps me develop and maintain a mental picture of traffic. As you’ve mentioned, there are often comm’s between aircraft who do not pose any risk to each other and I hear routine broadcasts way in excess of those recommended, the majority of which do not increase safety.

It seems the practice of developing any type of mental picture has been replaced by overuse of RT and some dubious traffic awareness devices. Technology is wonderful if used appropriately. Many of the posts on this and other forums makes me believe there’s simply no training or desire to gain knowledge around the appropriate use and limitations of traffic awareness technology. I started this discussion in an attempt gauge the current approach to traffic awareness / collision avoidance, particularly around airports. I don’t have an opinion on how it should be done.

Edited April 15, 2022 by Roundsounds

[Garfly]

Yes, I think it's good practice to note down relevant callsigns when you can.  It saves time - and grabs attention - if you need to talk directly to that aircraft.  But, as mentioned by others, second best usually works out: " ... aircraft inbound from the west for overhead join, what's your current position? ... "  

Actually, the MGL radio I use now has a button for instant replay of the last transmission. I think that will be useful when I finally remember to use it.

 

As to excessive chatter, well the goldilocks mean (neither too little, nor too much) has always been a bone of contention on here; many exhaustive threads can be found on it.

 

It could be that the art of building mental images of circuit traffic will decline as new traffic awareness tech takes hold, but it wouldn't be the first aeronautical skill to fall to the might of the digital revolution   ; -) 

 

I haven't, myself, observed overuse of 'dubious traffic awareness devices', though, I'm sure it exists.  On the other hand, I've already had several close-calls near airports averted thanks to my (CASA approved ... nay, encouraged!) EC device.   It's pictures are just soooo much better than my own, which are mental.

 

 

 

[Mike Gearon]

10 hours ago, Garfly said:

I

Anyway, Roundsounds, you're an experienced instructor, right.  Please tell us what you think.

 

How do you think the question should be answered?

 

 

So, that’s what’s going on! 
 

I was trying to work out why an obviously experienced pilot was asking!

 

I’d love to have that last playback feature. A feature I really like on the Garmin is dual monitoring. Example, I was coming into King Island on Melbourne Center and monitoring King Island CTAF. Heard them talking about me the unverified VFR and then heard one of the 2 pilots also converging on King island at the same ETA. I’d have been way less informed without that feature.

 

Because of dual monitoring I was able to have a site picture of the 2 transport aircraft and they were already talking about who’d be number one and two. I knew my ETA was the same and Melbourne was also telling the 2 I was same ETA. Made it really easy to let them know on CTAF  that  I’d meander down the coast at 80-90kn and let them go about their commercial business and tourist me would enjoy the view. 
 

I’d say to be completely honest it’s a very appropriate thread. I fly most days and 2 aircraft on CTAF are pretty easy. It gets more and more difficult as you add them. Weekend or monthly flights and you’d expect to be a bit rusty!
 

I’m adding ADSB in as mentioned if I can find the f$#@ng little USB stick thing with a sucker on end. My wife claims to have not tidied it up!

 

Add GoPros with headset wires, iPhone, extra phone with Telstra chip for country trips and IPad along with backup batteries for head set and wires to power stuff as needed and it makes you want to fly the quicksilver. Simple seat of the pants flying with a yaw string and airspeed indicator. Low, slow fun flying with the wind full on in your face and practically 360 degree vision. 

 

 

[Garfly]

31 minutes ago, Mike Gearon said:

Add GoPros with headset wires, iPhone, extra phone with Telstra chip for country trips and IPad along with backup batteries for head set and wires to power stuff as needed and it makes you want to fly the quicksilver. Simple seat of the pants flying with a yaw string and airspeed indicator. Low, slow fun flying with the wind full on in your face and practically 360 degree vision. 

That's the beauty of the SkyEcho2 box, though.  No cables needed.  Just a little white thing wirelessly informing your tablet - and the world around.  Also gives its GPS info to your EFB if needed. And, oh yeah, should tell those commercial flights - and Centre - all the who, what, where of you they need.   ;- )

 

 

 

 

Edited April 15, 2022 by Garfly