ASIC AGAIN!!!

[skippydiesel]

Latest edition,  102,  of Sport Pilot ("Official Publication of Recreational Aviation Australia Ltd" ????) has once again attempted to promote the ever unpopular and ridiculously ineffectual ASIC (Red) card to sport/RAA pilots.  Don't know who is putting the pressure on Nickolas Heath, Editor of Sport Pilot, to publish this propaganda, for that is what its is. Surely he must known that the Red Card is pretty well universally disparaged by the RAA/sport pilot community, who want to see it abandoned (not promoted) as an entry requirement, for all minor RPT airfields around the country.

 

The article itself, supposedly by a Dr Luke Howie "internationally- renowned ant-terrorism expert"  is  a disjointed collection of statements, that do nothing to justify the imposition of the Red Card, as applied to sport pilots.

 

In the middle of his article he observes correctly: "It would be reasonable for sport pilots to doubt the need for such  security screening." .... "governments and experts were panicked after 9/11"  into an over the top programme (my words)and goes on to point out some of the inconsitencies in Au security requirements across transport industries.

 

There are many more words - they come across as a wedeling series of justifications for what, has turned out to be, a completely unjustifiable/unenforceable/costly government bungle (as applied to sport pilots accessing minor RPT airfields)

 

In my reading of the article, I do not get the impression that Dr Howie is an enthusiastic promotor of the scheme, as it has been applied to us.

 

Sport Pilot/Mr Heath and RAA dont seem to get it - we the members are against ASIC/Red Card, as it has been applied to us. Rather than promote this discredited programme they should be actively working to see it closed.

 

Here endeth the rant.

[KRviator]

Then there was the writeup in Ed 99 about the ASIC too, but failed to mention that so long as you avoid the traffic period for an RPT airport, you don't need an ASIC. If you can't do that, you get the ARO to escort you, or simply feign ignorance. 

One thing military life taught me is It is better to ask forgiveness than for permission...

I'd be interested to know how many weekend warriors have flown into an RPT airport and actually been asked to display their ASIC.

[skippydiesel]

6 minutes ago, KRviator said:

T.....................................................................

I'd be interested to know how many weekend warriors have flown into an RPT airport and actually been asked to display their ASIC.

In the five years I held a Red Card no one asked to see it. 

 

Ironically, after the card had lapsed but I still had it in my possession (glove box of aeroplane where it had not seen the light of day since issue), I was asked , when visiting an ex RPT airfield (no service for many years) if I had one, I responded in the affirmative, box ticked, I proceeded with my visit.

[Thruster88]

The only thing an ASIC card is good for is showing how quickly two years of our life goes by.

 

The good professor did not answer that was asked at the beginning of the article, "why do I have to submit my identification every 2 years, from scratch". Three pages of shite.  

Edited April 13, 2022 by Thruster88

[Keenaviator]

4 hours ago, KRviator said:

Then there was the writeup in Ed 99 about the ASIC too, but failed to mention that so long as you avoid the traffic period for an RPT airport, you don't need an ASIC. If you can't do that, you get the ARO to escort you, or simply feign ignorance. 

One thing military life taught me is It is better to ask forgiveness than for permission...

I'd be interested to know how many weekend warriors have flown into an RPT airport and actually been asked to display their ASIC.

Only Kalgoorlie (by a grounds person who didn't even know what an AVID was) and Merimbula where they have a vested interest. They serve absolutely no purpose apart from keeping a few more pen pushers in a job.

Laurie

[kgwilson]

The article was complete rubbish. He prattled on about terrorism and 9/11 & there was nothing of any substance that had any practical reason for anyone in the recreational aviation field to have one of these things. He went on about the threats in the USA (No ASIC cards there) & didn't mention at all that Australia is the only place to have them. The fact that the ASIC is not linked to ANY other nation wide system is the most obvious reason that it is the industry that produces and issues these worthless, useless, pieces of red plastic that is the only beneficiary.

 

We all have a photo ID divers licence & Medicare card which are accepted throughout the country as positive ID and can be checked on state & federal government systems in seconds. Heaths editorial was guarded. In one breath he was saying why do we need them and then OK but only every 5 years. Sniff test fail big time. Who is pulling his strings?

 

Not having an ASIC does not stop anyone from flying in to any airport that requires them & as soon as you land you are already in the security area.

 

The answer to the biennial ID requirement is just money for the issuing outfit.

 

Just pathetic. All private aviators should boycott these things.

[johnm]

cynically ! - yeah but ............ you can't expect a bureaucracy to admit a system (ASIC) is a flop

 

a good burgeoning bureaucracy must continue with the bureaucratic system until the systems bureaucratic annoyance causes bureaucrats to admit the system is a stinker  

 

The system is then (could take some years) excised from the bureaucracy - and the next day ? - it's like the system never, ever existed

[waraton]

Was intended to control access to freight and baggage areas at major airports not interfere with access to an avgas bowser or private hangar. To extend it to airfields with RPT operations at regional airfields is a a joke. There have been ongoing issues with baggage handlers etc at major airports wearing asic cards that are expired, and owned by someone else. In almost 40 years of flying I have never known a GA pilot who needed to access the secure areas of an airport terminal. If you really must have them, make the RPT aprons and baggage areas off limits without a card and leave all other areas out of the requirement. I believe ASIC system is an expensive unenforceable joke. 

[onetrack]

The entire ASIC card system is flawed beyond belief. It was set up in response to a major aerial terrorism attack in another country on the other side of the world, as a result of that countrys war policies.

There has never been a radical terrorism attack on Australia, and the likelihood of it happening is so low as to be "statistically irrelevant".

 

I have no idea who gathered and collated the statistics of an aerial-launched terrorism attack on a building in Australia, but I suspect overseas figures were used, rather than local figures gathered - that is, if any statistics were actually used to formulate policies, in regard to ASIC cards.

 

The simple facts remain; There has been only one aerial terrorism attack in Australia during the entire aviation era, and the ASIC card system would not have picked up that deranged, bitter individual - let alone be able to stop his attack.

If I was a radical terrorist, intent on an aerial terrorism attack, I don't need to attend any ASIC-card-secured airport to launch an attack, I could do it with a drone today.

 

The ASIC system fails to pick up pilots who have evil intent, or who may become deranged. I can well remember from around 20-25 years ago, one exceptionally bitter business person, who was shafted big-time by unethical Big Bank behaviour.

The Bank involved foreclosed on him in the most unjust manner, for spurious and banking greed reasons, and he lost everything he owned after working for decades.

 

He became very bitter and planned savage revenge on the bank - in particular the executives who had wronged him. He held a pilots licence, and he said in an interview, at the lowest point of his life, he was going to steal an aircraft and fly it into the Bank headquarters to exact revenge on those individuals.

He said the only thing that actually stopped him at the time, was the fact that he had no way of guaranteeing he was going to kill the right people.

He later got pyschiatric help, and got over his mental aberration, realising afterwards, how wrong it was to even think of doing such a thing - but there are probably still a handful of people out there with pilot licences, who have the ability, backed by revenge-inspired mental health problems, to actually carry out some similar action.

I don't know how people with mental health problems holding pilots licences are picked up - or who is looking to pick them up - but I'll wager nothing in the ASIC card system is designed to do so.

[RossK]

The flaw in the whole system is that someone with bad intentions is not going to apply for an ASIC or AVID. Only law abiding citizens get them, or those forced to, to do their job.

You can leave from a small local field and simply fly into a regional airport with RPT aircraft and voila, you have access to a much larger aircraft.

After typing this - I'm probably going to get flagged by big brother and have my Red Card revoked.

[mkennard]

ASIC = "I'm a nice person verified"

[skippydiesel]

The last time Sport Pilotspouted this propaganda, I wrote to them expressing my disappointment on what I saw was a promotion of something the majority of sport pilots apposed.

I sought a public statement distance themselves from the policy and an apology for publishing the article ("Red Carded".

As you might expect, I got neither but surprise! surprise!, they did publish my letter - with a trait response.

[KRviator]

1 hour ago, RossK said:

The flaw in the whole system is that someone with bad intentions is not going to apply for an ASIC or AVID. Only law abiding citizens get them, or those forced to, to do their job.

You can leave from a small local field and simply fly into a regional airport with RPT aircraft and voila, you have access to a much larger aircraft.

After typing this - I'm probably going to get flagged by big brother and have my Red Card revoked.

Let's face it, no one who is not mentally ill is going to try to hijack an airliner in Australia to make a political statement, or kill a hundred people.

There's far easier ways of doing it, like taking a suitcase of stuff that goes bang onto a Sydney train and setting it off in the underground. No security checks, passengers (usually, pre-covid) packed in like sardines, a nice tight tunnel to maximise the force of the explosion etc etc. Or doing the "truck through a crowd" thing as in Europe. IF you wanted to bring down an airliner, you aren't going to go through security, just pinch a Mooney or KingAir from a regional airport and fly it into a departing 747/A380 departing 34L in Sydney. 200T of fuel, 200 passengers all coming down on a residential area - and not an x-ray machine or ASIC in sight.

NOTE FOR ASIO: I ain't planning on any of the above (so don't send TOU to my place, please!) - just highlighting the stupidity of the current system where if a law-abiding citizen can come up with the above with only a few seconds thought, what can someone who is actually intent on doing harm come up with, with months to plan it....

[Yenn]

Not only the cards but we also have to ensure that our plane cannot be controlled without having a key. Have to have a special lock that the key will not come out of unless it is locked, plus have to have a sign on a canopy cover stating that a security lock is fitted. I really wonder at the sanity of those in charge.

[Marty_d]

Yeah I read that today and agree with everyone - totally uninspiring and unconvincing pile of horse dung.

 

You expect actual representatives of a government body - whose job it is - to attempt, no matter how half heartedly, to justify the policies they're paid to implement.  You don't expect it from an academic.

[skippydiesel]

May be its time, to collectively (one letter many signatures) write to the Sport Pilot Editor Nickolas Heath, RAA's Matt Bouttell, CEO & Micheal Monk, Chairman of Directors, to express our displeasure, at the failure of RAA to have the ASIC card system, as applied to sport pilots wishing to access low volume RPT airfields, completely  removed.

 

What say you (all)??

[Flying_higher]

RAAus has already made it clear what their view is on ASICS, and like you, they’ve said many times that at the very least, they should be for 5 years and not 2 years. 
The reality is that RAA can say all they like about the ASIC to the government but unfortunately they’ll have as much luck as a travel agent telling the government that passports shouldn’t be required. 
 

[skippydiesel]

 

9 minutes ago, Flying_higher said:

RAAus has already made it clear what their view is on ASICS, and like you, they’ve said many times that at the very least, they should be for 5 years and not 2 years. 
The reality is that RAA can say all they like about the ASIC to the government but unfortunately they’ll have as much luck as a travel agent telling the government that passports shouldn’t be required. 
 

Poor choice of analogy.

 

RAA are duty bound to pursue the majority will of its member's - that is why we elect/pay them. 

 

Not only do they not seem to be doing so, in this case.

 

To make matters worse, their publicity mouth piece "Sport Pilot" is actively prompting this discredited and unpopular system - what do you propose should be done?

Edited April 15, 2022 by skippydiesel

[Flying_higher]

37 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

 

Poor choice of analogy.

 

RAA are duty bound to pursue the majority will of its member's - that is why we elect/pay them. 

 

Not only do they not seem to be doing so, in this case.

 

To make matters worse, their publicity mouth piece "Sport Pilot" is actively prompting this discredited and unpopular system - what do you propose should be done?

Poor choice of analogy? Why? Because it demonstrates that a private organisation is at the behest of the government? Righto….

 

as I said previously, RAA is already on record for advocating for their members on this very issue but they have no ability to control the issue. It’s home affairs and given some

clowns flew some planes into a building a few years ago I can’t see RAA’s advocacy doing SFA. But sure, blame them if it makes you feel better. 
 

and as far as SportPilot is concerned, I’m not sure why you think they are supporting the ASIC. perhaps they’re seeking the reasons why our government insists on them. That’s very different from supporting them. Maybe if your so against ASICS you should just stay away from airports that require them then they won’t be an issue. 
 

 

[Roundsounds]

Exactly was is it the security experts are protecting the country from?

Is it;

- a 911 style event?

- smuggling illegal items through freight / baggage areas?

- a rouge Easter bunny?

or is it to support the security / bureaucrats jobs?

The last time I drove past a regional security controlled airport an access gate was wide open and unattended. 
ASICs are a wasted effort, it’s about time RAAus and AOPA made a decent effort to have a sensible alternative developed for GA / Sport Av ops. 

[skippydiesel]

11 hours ago, Flying_higher said:

Poor choice of analogy? Why? Because it demonstrates that a private organisation is at the behest of the government? Righto….

 

as I said previously, RAA is already on record for advocating for their members on this very issue but they have no ability to control the issue. It’s home affairs and given some

clowns flew some planes into a building a few years ago I can’t see RAA’s advocacy doing SFA. But sure, blame them if it makes you feel better. 
 

and as far as SportPilot is concerned, I’m not sure why you think they are supporting the ASIC. perhaps they’re seeking the reasons why our government insists on them. That’s very different from supporting them. Maybe if your so against ASICS you should just stay away from airports that require them then they won’t be an issue. 
 

 

(Passports) Poor choice of analogy? - The only similarity between passports & Red Cards is their mandate by the Australian Gov and their issue  by a bureaucracy. After this there is no similarity. Most people support the need for monitoring entry/exit to our country & accept the same for our entry to other countries. Not so the Red Card as applied to sport level pilots & minor RPT airports - Initial support has completely evaporated - Red Cards are are rarely inspected - the two year life span is ridiculous. Basically no one can see the point in containing with them EXCEPT  for that gelling concern/fear you might just get caught out & be charged with something??

 

"I can’t see RAA’s advocacy doing SFA". Unfortunately you are probably correct in this sentiment. That does not mean that RAA should step back from a position of opposition (on behalf of its members) on this matter and certainly they should not take up a pro Red Card position as it would appear they have, in publishing  BS articles in Sport Pilot.

 

"But sure, blame them if it makes you feel better."  RAA are supposed to be representing its members - in this matter who else would you have us blame??
 

"Maybe .................you should just stay away from airports that require them ..." When was the last time, you tried to go on an extended trip away and were unable to avoid landing  at some stage,  at an RPT served airfield?  Personally, most of my trips are short,  I do not often have to access a "security controlled"  field  but a few times per year I may go on a longer voyage - this is when I get concerned about not having a Red Card and question the legit massy of such a programmes existence. 

 

"......then they won’t be an issue."  - So you only appose  bad legislation on the basis of how it effects you personally ? 

[walrus]

The purpose of ASIC cards is to provide a capability for control of access to aviation infrastructure. The fact that they aren't controlling much at regional airports NOW doesn't invalidate the program.

 

Try getting and remaining airside at a major capital city airport without an ASIC. Try getting an ASIC  and a job in aviation if you have a criminal record. Read the list of disqualifying conditions for an ASIC.

 

I'm going to be travelling via Ports requiring ASICs. Some of them have three strand fences that can't even keep the kangaroos out, but that isn't the point. In future, security can be ramped up very quickly at those ports - just hire the guards and build the fences. The ASIC is the bureaucratic infrastructure that supports improved security - when we need it.

[Roundsounds]

20 minutes ago, walrus said:

The purpose of ASIC cards is to provide a capability for control of access to aviation infrastructure. The fact that they aren't controlling much at regional airports NOW doesn't invalidate the program.

 

Try getting and remaining airside at a major capital city airport without an ASIC. Try getting an ASIC  and a job in aviation if you have a criminal record. Read the list of disqualifying conditions for an ASIC.

 

I'm going to be travelling via Ports requiring ASICs. Some of them have three strand fences that can't even keep the kangaroos out, but that isn't the point. In future, security can be ramped up very quickly at those ports - just hire the guards and build the fences. The ASIC is the bureaucratic infrastructure that supports improved security - when we need it.

Maybe so, what I’m trying to understand is what are we being protected against and how will ASICs do so?

[kgwilson]

Why do we need a system to provide for a possibility so rare no-one can even tell us who or what the issue is. In the event of anything remotely like 9/11 happening here, security will be immediate and total & an ASIC won't be worth the plastic it is printed on.

[skippydiesel]

4 hours ago, walrus said:

The purpose of ASIC cards is to provide a capability for control of access to aviation infrastructure. The fact that they aren't controlling much at regional airports NOW doesn't invalidate the program.

 

Try getting and remaining airside at a major capital city airport without an ASIC. Try getting an ASIC  and a job in aviation if you have a criminal record. Read the list of disqualifying conditions for an ASIC.

 

I'm going to be travelling via Ports requiring ASICs. Some of them have three strand fences that can't even keep the kangaroos out, but that isn't the point. In future, security can be ramped up very quickly at those ports - just hire the guards and build the fences. The ASIC is the bureaucratic infrastructure that supports improved security - when we need it.

Note; I am not against ASIC or Red Cards per say - they and the"system" have my full support,  as it pertains to larger hubs (number of air craft movements/people, aircraft size, national ports).

 

I do not support the "shotgun" approach, as this is how the system was introduced & managed now, for sport/recreation pilots and their use/access of minor RPT airfields.

 

My beef ((in line with the majority of my pilot peers) has nothing to do with jobs in aviation or entry to airside of the larger hubs. If you had read my previous comments on this matter, you would know that.

 

You talk of "future security" how exactly do you see the requirement to have a Red Card (renewed every 2.5 years) for sport level pilots, flying into low frequency RPT airfields, with little/no security to speak of , saving us,  in the event of some (unlikely to involve or originate with criminal band of sport pilots/from a low level RPT field) future terrorist event(s)??????