ASIC AGAIN!!!

[skippydiesel]

Seems to me that, despite the "muddy waters" of the various documents referred to , as yet,  no one has demonstrated, that an ASIC is a prerequisite to holding a valid GA private pilots license.

[Marty_d]

Can I just ask, if people want to know the rules, why not ask CASA or Home Affairs directly and ask for the answer by email so you have it from the horses mouth?

Forums are great for general information but if you want to know a specific legal situation then it makes sense to ask the department overseeing enforcement of that rule.

[coljones]

For further amusement try this

 

https://www.casa.gov.au/sites/default/files/2021-11/flight-crew-licensing-manual.pdf

 

Apart from the Nationals running a protection racket for Rex (and a gun in every house) and the opposition and Flight Centre running a protection racket for non-Oz airlines I am plumb out of conspiracy theories. 

 

For better or worse, I fly into airports requiring an ASIC so against my better judgement I have an ASIC.  I will add, however, that the airport owner has the right to impose a usage or entry condition and that may be the need to carry and display ASIC/AVID.  So be it!

Edited November 25, 2023 by coljones
typo

[spacesailor]

You forgot the " NSW photo identity card " . 

It's supposed to be , the only one needed for identification. 

spacesailor

[turboplanner]

33 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

Seems to me that, despite the "muddy waters" of the various documents referred to , as yet,  no one has demonstrated, that an ASIC is a prerequisite to holding a valid GA private pilots license.

No one has to demonstrate it here; or get involved with the amazing statements we've been reading.

[coljones]

1 hour ago, onetrack said:

There's constant reference to "flight crew", but nothing referring to individual GA or RA pilots. To me, the definition of "flight crew" pertains only to people involved in RPT.

"1.2 What is Flight Crew Licencing The flight crews discussed in the Flight Crew Licensing Procedures are pilots and flight engineers."  This means that Flight attendants unless licenced as "flight crew" are not "flight crew".

[facthunter]

It's a strict requirement to carry them on Pax aircraft  on a ratio to passenger numbers Basis to perform essential tasks on the ground and in flight.    They DO have to have a card similar to the other  flight crew.   Nev

[kgwilson]

47 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

So it may be however proof of ID does not require an ASIC - it could be any number of other documents.

It is only one of a number of documents you can use to prove ID. ASIC is only 40% or 25% proof (if used as a second document) of ID so it isn't considered very strong proof at all..

[Markdun]

I find the ID thing intriguing. Clearly knowing someone’s ID can have absolutely zero to do with ‘keeping things safe’. Knowing someone’s ID enables the Gov to issue an infringement notice to them etc, but it doesn’t issue stop the person committing a crime.  I would admit however, that knowing someone’s name can result in unfounded discrimination and  IDdetention, for example if your mother named you, Hamid.  And I can’t see th at even if a police check showed a person had previous convictions that that would disqualify them from being issued with an ASIC, particularly if they have fulfilled the sentence imposed by a court.

On the other hand an airport operator would have right to require you to identify yourself as a condition of remaining on the property and so they can invoice you in respect of contractual obligations you’ve agreed to such as landing fees.  The same as you have the right to know the ID of the person selling you groceries, or the person who comes into your home. Where it gets really murky is the assertion that the registered operator of the aircraft (or for an aircraft operated under the auspices of RA-Aus, the person listed as operating that aircraft (note RA-Aus aircraft are not Australian registered aircraft as defined by the regulations despite what RA-Aus says)) can be billed by AVDATA for a contract entered into by the PIC when the PIC decided to land at an airfield.  This would be a black and white breach of the privity of contract rule.  Of-course, there would be no issue when the PIC and the registered operator are the same person.  This is why toll-road operators have had their mendicant State government pass laws giving them oppressive rights to pursue ‘registered operators’ of cars rather than drivers…. No such laws apply to AVDATA (perhaps I shouldn’t have said that).

[turboplanner]

27 minutes ago, Markdun said:

Clearly knowing someone’s ID can have absolutely zero to do with ‘keeping things safe’.

No, but often after a disaster, authorities are blamed because they ought to have known that the disaster was likely to happen, or they ought to have known the perpetrator was a well-known criminal who'd said many time he was goint to do it etc.

 

My opinion is the ASIC Card says "This person has been thoroughly backgrounded, is known to us and is not likely to be a threat."

 

 

 

 

[Carbon Canary]

My opinion is the ASIC Card says "This person has been thoroughly backgrounded, is known to us and is not likely to be a threat."

I’ve recently undergone a ‘Police Check’.  Does anyone know how the ASIC backgrounding differs from a police check ? For instance does ASIC involve Federal agencies, whereas a police check is only State ??

[Markdun]

Turbo, I think you are dreaming; at best it will be just to check with ASIO, probably not directly, whether the person with that ID is on a watch list.  And that’s a Mungaweka mile from ‘not likely to be a threat’. But if as you say it’s your opinion they are not likely to be a threat and you believe it, then the ASIC has delivered its objective of making people perceive feel safer.

[kgwilson]

Everyone who joins SES is required to undergo a police check but what it entails is unknown to me. This is instgated by the people from head office in Woollongong. So far no-one (at our Unit) has been refused and it usually only takes a few days to get the result.

[pmccarthy]

I have found my firearms licence is accepted as proof of identity with the Vic government but my ASIC is not.

[skippydiesel]

1 hour ago, turboplanner said:

No, but often after a disaster, authorities are blamed because they ought to have known that the disaster was likely to happen, or they ought to have known the perpetrator was a well-known criminal who'd said many time he was goint to do it etc.

 

My opinion is the ASIC Card says "This person has been thoroughly backgrounded, is known to us and is not likely to be a threat."

 

 

 

 

The flaw in your argument is that only people who believe they will pass a security check, apply for one (assuming they actually want one) the bad people will find other ways to gain access/do the dirty. ASIC will not protect you or the public from a person(s) determined to do a bad thing. 

 

The downside to having all sorts of persons, not known to each other,  (say at an busy Domestic or International airport) wearing an ASIC, is that a baddy with a forgery will be accepted as one of those "not likely to be a threat". Small Domestic airports (RPT's) are more likely to have ground & flight crew, known to each other, making ASIC, once again, superfluous to requirement, a total fraud.

 

With reference to small commuter aircraft (RPT) - As I have pointed out - rather than go to all the trouble to acquire a small aircraft & the skill to fly it into an ADSCA, the  baddy need only purchase a ticket, be ushered on to the RPT  aircraft, by ASIC wearing ground/flight crew, along with whatever threat they possess. Small regional airport do not have the sort of security found in International airports and many of the aircraft do not separate the flight deck from the cabine. 

Edited November 25, 2023 by skippydiesel

[turboplanner]

1 hour ago, skippydiesel said:

The flaw in your argument is that only people who believe they will pass a security check, apply for one (assuming they actually want one) the bad people will find other ways to gain access/do the dirty. ASIC will not protect you or the public from a person(s) determined to do a bad thing. 

 

The downside to having all sorts of persons, not known to each other,  (say at an busy Domestic or International airport) wearing an ASIC, is that a baddy with a forgery will be accepted as one of those "not likely to be a threat". Small Domestic airports (RPT's) are more likely to have ground & flight crew, known to each other, making ASIC, once again, superfluous to requirement, a total fraud.

 

With reference to small commuter aircraft (RPT) - As I have pointed out - rather than go to all the trouble to acquire a small aircraft & the skill to fly it into an ADSCA, the  baddy need only purchase a ticket, be ushered on to the RPT  aircraft, by ASIC wearing ground/flight crew, along with whatever threat they possess. Small regional airport do not have the sort of security found in International airports and many of the aircraft do not separate the flight deck from the cabine. 

Those are straw man arguments.

The bottom line is that incidents which led to prosecutions which led to convictions and prison sentences are not likely to be publicised.

Best to go through the regulations clause by clause and avoid that $15,650.00 fine.

 

[facthunter]

A fair while back, one of my company's Captains had a daughter in the other airline working as an Air Hostess and they swapped cards for a matter of months and it wasn't picked up and they sure didn't look  like each other, indicating just how much notice was taken of them . When it's used for a Passport application, it's not worth much either.

  Unaccompanied baggage usually attracts a lot of attention. I've had a Bombscare out of Port Moresby and it's no fun I can tell you because you only get told what they choose to tell you anyhow. WE do need all the security we can get. There's plenty of nutcases out there..  Nev

  PS this is not a response to Turbs post, as they overlapped.

Edited November 25, 2023 by facthunter
more content.

[turboplanner]

At one stage I worked within the confines of car manufacturer's styling studio which needed to keep information totally secret. We were issued with a credit card size Security Card with our photo on it and were required to walk a gauntlet passage past the independently employed guards every morning.

We go to know each other, greeted each other asked how the kids were etc.

One morning as I was about to flick the card out I realised I'd forgotten it, and rather than drive 40 minutes home and 40 minutes back  gave a cheerful good morning and was waved through. This got me curious so I decided to see how often I could do it, even though the penalty was instant dismissal. At 13 weeks I lost my nerve and clipped the Security card on again.

It's this sort of slackness that people who are up to no good rely on.

[facthunter]

AS you were very familiar to them they weren't concerned. It doesn't prove they would just let ANYONE past.  Nev

[facthunter]

Same as when an Air Traffic Controller recognises your voice. You're not going to be given the run around  someone else might.   Nev

[skippydiesel]

37 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

Those are straw man arguments.

The bottom line is that incidents which led to prosecutions which led to convictions and prison sentences are not likely to be publicised.

Best to go through the regulations clause by clause and avoid that $15,650.00 fine.

 

So my arguments are weak/distorted are they?  - yours claiming some mystical knowledge are factual then?

 

The fines may be a fact, however they present as the paternalistic statement of a weak system - do as I say without question or you will be punished. No justification, no evidence, just the power of the State demanding compliance.

 

 

Edited November 25, 2023 by skippydiesel

[spacesailor]

Jackboot johney said " they  ( the new photo licence ) will not be used as an identity card " .

Typical . politicians lie .

spacesailor

 

[facthunter]

You have no control over people accepting it as proof of Identity, but not everyone has One or wants one. Nev

[Markdun]

The school my son went to had a fantastic security system; there was pretty much zero chance for any ‘stranger’ hanging around on school ground.  It was a kindy to year 12 school, so big spread of ages. The older kids were taught that when they saw someone on the ground they didn’t know or thought shouldn’t be there, they should approach them and say words like, ‘Hi, I’m John Smith and you look like you might be lost. Can I help you?  I can show you to school reception, principals e office if you like’.  And the kids did this. Whenever I turned up I always had some bright eyed confident 14-17 year old as an escort (usually to the principal’s office where my son was waiting to be picked up).

[turboplanner]

58 minutes ago, facthunter said:

AS you were very familiar to them they weren't concerned. It doesn't prove they would just let ANYONE past.  Nev

Yes, a good reason, but that’s a level of relaxation. It might stop there but it might spread. I had another occasion where I walked in to a competitor’s office, sat down at the Sales Manager’s desk and left uninterrupted by anyone.  On another occasion one of our guys received a call from a competitor to come over and steal a car. His job was to get it past Security and take it to. Particular destination. He drove across with a bunch of our paperwork and drove the car out. There were several spectacular catches too.