ASIC AGAIN!!!

[turboplanner]

5 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

There was me thinking he was being sarcastic/"tongue in cheek"🙃

There have been so many straw man scenarios in this thread that we could sell bales.

[Area-51]

42 minutes ago, coljones said:

Are you sure that you're not confusing causation and coincidence?

No, rock solid on that one; developed an amazing untapped ability toward situational awareness after buying an aeroplane and an ASIC card. I feel validated when wearing my ASIC card, and lucky when flying an aeroplane... and no longer get selected aside for explosives or narcotic swabbing when advancing through airport pax security by men and women dressed in crisp blue clothes accessorised with their very own current ASIC card.

 

Its like being gold member. The doors, they part like the red sea and angels blow trumpets as my path beyond is heralded by the validated ones. Others, the non-validated ones, carry on oblivious to the parallel universe at play going on around them.

[spacesailor]

I go one up on that .

Before my new hip , I was ' ushered & pushed around & through the international airport ' .

Like a " KING " .

They were even calling the ' Air-traffic controllers ' to hold a minute . 

And I couldn't believe there were more than a dozen passenger's in 'wheelchairs.  For that one flight .

spacesailor

[Markdun]

19 hours ago, Area-51 said:

Its like being gold member. The doors, they part like the red sea and angels blow trumpets as my path beyond is heralded by the validated ones. Others, the non-validated ones, carry on oblivious to the parallel universe at play going on around them.

Surprising, as my brother a senior officer in Airservices (now retired) once (& only once) wore his security pass returning to Australia via Kingsford Smith Aerodrome from his many many many international ICAO and other meetings about ADSB, and was given the exact opposite treatment. ‘Never again’ was his decision.  The view taken by the aerodrome authorities was that he wore his ASIC while being a passenger because he had something to hide.

 

Area51 I think you must live in a parallel universe because by my reckoning things like an ASIC discourage people being alert…and situationally aware because they assume, like you assume, that people with a displayed ASIC are somehow less of a threat.  Just like many pilots don’t triple check the controls on an aircraft after work has been carried out on the controls by LAMEs or L2s.  Same as I’ve had an instructor suggest I don’t need to do a walk around on an unfamiliar aircraft I was going to fly for a BFR because they had already done the DI. ‘No thanks, I like to check myself’.

 

 Spacesailor, my beau recently had the same experience with recent international travel. She is currently on the list for a hip replacement. She was treated like a Queen in every country EXCEPT Australia.  On return at Sydney International she, and the other wheelies, were just dumped at immigration and customs minus wheelchairs. Total disaster. She finally got some assistance from terminal staff whose job was to assist disabled ppl to get herself to where I was waiting to pick her up, except they didn’t know where the disabled parking was and so that took another 3/4 of an hour.

[Ironpot]

Mods, this is getting a bit silly now!

 

We all know that young students and the general public (maybe CASA too) read these forums and rely on, what they hope, is genuine experience. We all know that pilots require a valid background but that is not being conveyed here.

 

We now have a poster encouraging pilots to break Australian Federal Law by walking through hangars and avoiding security fences without the appropriate security clearance - clearly this forum, at the vey least, cannot support any such cowboy behaviour amongst pilots. At the worst, in the event of a safety incident, the forum may have some liability and clearly these views should not be condoned.

 

[spacesailor]

Security!.

I waked 'to ' my international  ( many years before hip ) checkin, wearing a ' life vest ' complete with knife ' before staff decided I couldn't have the knife.  It was put in a very large paper bag to go into the hold . & I retrieved it from NZ Security in nz.

spacesailor

[Markdun]

I can beat that Spacey. I wore my climbing rope, iceaxe, ice hammer, climbing hardware (karabiners, ice screws, crampons), also to NZ because hand baggage wasn’t weighed. No problem with security, though Flight attendant did warn me that she didn’t think the rope would be long enough if I wanted to abseil from the aircraft. My mountaineering partner’s girl friend gave him a large Xmas cake (+3kg) wrapped in foil…. Could have been mostly hashish knowing what those two got up to (but it was just cake)…. Again no one cared less. On arriving in NZ the customs guys kindly cleaned our boots.  And recently in Australia I had about a metre of stainless steel ‘safety wire’ that was in the bottom of a daypack confiscated…go figure.

[kgwilson]

56 minutes ago, Ironpot said:

Mods, this is getting a bit silly now!

 

We all know that young students and the general public (maybe CASA too) read these forums and rely on, what they hope, is genuine experience. We all know that pilots require a valid background but that is not being conveyed here.

 

We now have a poster encouraging pilots to break Australian Federal Law by walking through hangars and avoiding security fences without the appropriate security clearance - clearly this forum, at the vey least, cannot support any such cowboy behaviour amongst pilots. At the worst, in the event of a safety incident, the forum may have some liability and clearly these views should not be condoned.

 

Have you heard the term "Get a Life". This is a forum for opinions on all sides of an issue and anything goes. It is when the poster is attacked and not the issue where the line is drawn. Personally I welcome debate with any CASA, State or Federal representative on security at certain airports or airfields. In fact i already have spoken a number of their representatives and told them what I think. In some cases I have agreement from them but they are bound by their employment contact to tow the department line officially.

[facthunter]

IF "anything" goes,  then Ironpot's concerns/views are entitled to be expressed like any other unless it's a personal insult  or otherwise deserving of moderation.. Recommending the breaking of LAWS  might attract adverse attention and be on shakey ground for Ian's site  Nev

[skippydiesel]

 Recommending the breaking of LAWS  might attract adverse attention and be on shakey ground for Ian's site  

 

Legitimate protest against unreasonable legislation - a  cornerstone of a democratic political system. Australians are way too easy going, when it comes to all sorts of legislation that is - unreasonable-without logical foundation-infringements on human rights- infringement on the independence of the court- secrecy - whistle blower -plain stupid,  etc etc.

 

I am not sure if its indifference or laziness,  that we don't protest the behaviour/direction of our leaders more often and with greater vigour.

 

Those who advocate adherence to a law which has no logical foundation, makes no sense  (for small regional airports )is not policed or implemented  (in any meaningful way),  might want to examine their rationale for such a stand - it would seem to be, the law says "jump", your response -  "how high sir" ? a reasonable person would ask "why the order to jump"?

 

We may owe much of our historical wealth to the Merino but there is no need to adopt an ovine view of authority.

[Markdun]

Let’s put this in perspective. I personally know of a serial paedophile, Aaron James Holliday, who while in remand in gaol in the A.C.T., conspired with another inmate to pay $10k to have a 12 year old boy kidnapped, forced to give a video statement that his brother was lying (about the sexual assault) and then to be ‘knocked’. The evidence presented to court was notes written by Holliday, and the testimony of the prisoner Holliday asked to organise the kidnapping and murder. A jury found him guilty of kidnapping but not of conspiracy for contract killing because the prosecution did not provide evidence that in ‘crim talk’ having someone ‘knocked’ meant having them murdered. The High Court overturned the guilty conviction on appeal.  Convictions for encouraging other ppl to commit crimes (so called ‘inchoate’ offences), like telling them how to avoid prosecution, are notoriously difficult to prosecute…even proven paedophiles get away with it.  So it’s not just ‘get a life’, but also ‘get real’.  That said everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I have no ill feelings to those that like the ASIC arrangements.  

[tillmanr]

5 hours ago, spacesailor said:

I go one up on that .

Before my new hip , I was ' ushered & pushed around & through the international airport ' .

Like a " KING " .

They were even calling the ' Air-traffic controllers ' to hold a minute . 

And I couldn't believe there were more than a dozen passenger's in 'wheelchairs.  For that one flight .

spacesailor

Unfortunately many passengers have realised that they can gain express boarding by requesting mobility assistance. They have an amazing recovery as soon as the plane lands. I have seen this happen a number of times. 
 

[spacesailor]

Yes. I too walked away , with a very pronounced limp .

But the airline ' insisted ' I use the provided ' wheelchair ' ! 

Or , there was No way to get from A to B before the air craft departed, hence the call to

" hold the aircraft " as my assistant pushing me couldn't make it as well , in the time allocated .

spacesailor

PS , I also had a paraglide in Turkey, With my " Ho-So painfully hip, 

[BurnieM]

Starting with the very basis of the ASIC card; I understand its purpose is to deny airside access to non-authorised persons.

 

Yet there is nothing in place to stop any pilot from landing and taxiing airside without an ASIC card. Further there appears to be no power given to airport security (except AFP) to take any action except perhaps denying access to RPT terminals and gate codes (the opposite of its stated purpose). There also appears to be no negative consequences at all from this lack of power for security to take any action.

 

Stating the obvious; ASIC cards have absolutely failed in their stated purpose.

 

So why is this money still being stolen from us ?

 

Edited November 22, 2023 by BurnieM

[facthunter]

They may be  all you say, but recommending people break laws they don't like is BAD advice. Nev

[skippydiesel]

11 hours ago, Markdun said:

Let’s put this in perspective. I personally know of a serial paedophile, Aaron James Holliday, who while in remand in gaol in the A.C.T., conspired with another inmate to pay $10k to have a 12 year old boy kidnapped, forced to give a video statement that his brother was lying (about the sexual assault) and then to be ‘knocked’. The evidence presented to court was notes written by Holliday, and the testimony of the prisoner Holliday asked to organise the kidnapping and murder. A jury found him guilty of kidnapping but not of conspiracy for contract killing because the prosecution did not provide evidence that in ‘crim talk’ having someone ‘knocked’ meant having them murdered. The High Court overturned the guilty conviction on appeal.  Convictions for encouraging other ppl to commit crimes (so called ‘inchoate’ offences), like telling them how to avoid prosecution, are notoriously difficult to prosecute…even proven paedophiles get away with it.  So it’s not just ‘get a life’, but also ‘get real’.  That said everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I have no ill feelings to those that like the ASIC arrangements.  

I take the point but a most unfortunate story.

On your last sentence

"That said everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I have no ill feelings to those that like the ASIC arrangements".

I agree wholeheartedly with the "entitled to have their opinion" but "like the ASIC arrangements" - seems to me that "like" is the wrong word - how about acquiesce? 

 

[skippydiesel]

10 hours ago, facthunter said:

They may be  all you say, but recommending people break laws they don't like is BAD advice. Nev

I regret that you think I may have "recommending people break laws they don't like".

 

To clarify my position on the topic of ASIC;

 

ASIC, as it pertains to small domestic airports is indeed bad legislation/law. How a pilot deals with this reality, is entirely up to them.

I am happy to point out the inconsistencies, failures to implement & ridiculousness of this system - how the individual pilot might wish to use this information is, once again, up to them.

Culturally, Australians are known to basically ignore bad law - its a feature of our society. Should a pilot wish to express their disdain for ASIC, by vocalising, ignoring, etc, that is their prerogative.

 

 

[turboplanner]

29 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

I regret that you think I may have "recommending people break laws they don't like".

 

To clarify my position on the topic of ASIC;

 

ASIC, as it pertains to small domestic airports is indeed bad legislation/law. How a pilot deals with this reality, is entirely up to them.

I am happy to point out the inconsistencies, failures to implement & ridiculousness of this system - how the individual pilot might wish to use this information is, once again, up to them.

Culturally, Australians are known to basically ignore bad law - its a feature of our society. Should a pilot wish to express their disdain for ASIC, by vocalising, ignoring, etc, that is their prerogative.

 

 

All assertions by you. 

[facthunter]

A person who encourages some one to break a Law may be guilty of INCITEMENT. Thats just a FACT. Nothing to do with how I feel about the ASIC. You have also published it on a Public Forum and I said MAY adversely affect this forum. NOTHING at all about being a sheep or weak or any such slur. IF you knew me at all you'd be laughing at  the accusation.   Nev

[skippydiesel]

40 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

All assertions by you. 

Yes and supported by real experience and a large number of other commentators.

 

No offence Turbs me old mate but I don't have the  benefit of your supposed insider knowledge, that just doesn't seem to reflect pilots experience of ASIC.

 

Just one of several examples: I fly into a  north western NSW country ADSCA/ASIC airport, tie my aircraft down in the designated visitor area and then spend 45 minutes failing to find anyone at all, let alone a security person. Exit via unsecured "security" gate - hungry & tired, I get a taxi into town spend the night, taxi back to airport - still not a sole in sight - preflight/depart. Good experience despite the lack of a chat with fellow aviator/security guard/maintenance person/etc.

[skippydiesel]

2 minutes ago, facthunter said:

A person who encourages some one to break a Law may be guilty of INCITEMENT. Thats just a FACT. Nothing to do with how I feel about the ASIC. You have also published it on a Public Forum and I said MAY adversely affect this forum. NOTHING at all about being a sheep or weak or any such slur. IF you knew me at all you'd be laughing at  the accusation.   Nev

Dear Nev,

 

The Donald incites people with lies and hysterical rhetoric.

 

I am amused, that you would seek to  "fly of" 😁 on the tangent of such ill founded observations- In short I have answered your charge on this matter - I can say no more.

[kgwilson]

So I fly in to Coffs without an ASIC, taxi to the Aero Club, go inside for a cuppa. Ask someone for the gate code, fly home. No problem with ATC or anyone else there but due to an ill conceived and enacted system that does not enhance safety in any way this is Illegal?

[facthunter]

That's funny Skip. I thought you were the one hyperventilating. I hope we don't use Trump as a yardstick but he is a GOOD example of irresponsibility.  "Fly off on the tangent of such ILL founded observations" How does that remotely match what I said? and I'm concerned with the welfare and reputation of this SITE. primarily.   Nev

[facthunter]

I have NO idea KG but you are not advocating breaking the Law.  We all adapt to it in our own  way. I pointed out a simple aspect of concern  and used the word MAY and all hell breaks loose.. Nev

[Ironpot]

40 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

 

 

Just one of several examples: I fly into a  north western NSW country ADSCA/ASIC airport, tie my aircraft down in the designated visitor area and then spend 45 minutes failing to find anyone at all, let alone a security person. Exit via unsecured "security" gate - hungry & tired, I get a taxi into town spend the night, taxi back to airport - still not a sole in sight - preflight/depart. Good experience despite the lack of a chat with fellow aviator/security guard/maintenance person/etc.

Which airport is that?