What kit aircraft have you built?

[derekliston]

3 hours ago, onetrack said:

But "noce" in Italian can cover a range of descriptions. Google translate tells me that "noce castellata" is a "castellate walnut" (not that Google is all that good on translation, of course!).

 

However, "una noce di burro" is "one pad (or serve) of butter", where "noce" simply refers to, or describes "a small piece". Thus we have the exactitude of English technical terms being reduced in the Italian translation, to a description of possibly more than one item or article.

The term "il dado" can also be used for "nut", although its commonly used to describe the gambling dice. If you try "il dado castellata", you'll find it can translate as "castellated nut".

However, the word "castellated" doesn't translate easily into Italian as "castellata" is feminine, and "castellato" is masculine, and this adds confusion. So, was that a male nut, or a female nut? 

Surely by any measure the nut is feminine because the screw goes into it!!!!

[CAV0K]

Where’s the best source of information to read about what you can or cannot do, pro’s and con’s of building vs buying factory built?

 

Ive looked on RAAus website but couldn’t find much on building vs buying, let alone owning an aircraft. 

 

Id like to know what are the limitations and freedoms of each scenario (build vs buy)

[Blueadventures]

11 minutes ago, CAV0K said:

Where’s the best source of information to read about what you can or cannot do, pro’s and con’s of building vs buying factory built?

 

Ive looked on RAAus website but couldn’t find much on building vs buying, let alone owning an aircraft. 

 

Id like to know what are the limitations and freedoms of each scenario (build vs buy)

Join EAA and Kitplanes is a good start and money well spent about how things can be done.

[rgmwa]

This might be useful as a guide to what's involved in building. It's for RV's but would generally apply to other kit-built aircraft as well. https://www.vansaircraft.com/building-an-rv/.  Their quoted hours to build are on the optimistic side, unless you've got some previous experience.

 

Building is a lot cheaper than buying a new aircraft of similar performance, but you need the time and interest to spend the 3-5 years it typically takes. Hard to do for most people bringing up a family as time and cash are in usually short supply, and if your wife/partner is not on board with the idea, probably best to forget it. 

As for buying, it comes down to paying more (unless buying used), paying for someone else to maintain it, but flying as soon as it's yours.

You could also pick up some copies of Kitplanes magazine to get a better idea of the ins and outs of building.

 

[kgwilson]

Some basic engineering, electrical and mechanical skills and you will usually have no problem building a kit at least a so called fast build kit. Many of the composite kits have a lot of the components like wings and fuselage already made so it is more like an assembly and finishing operation but will require installation of the engine, avionics and all the wiring (even then often wiring harnesses are supplied) plus undercarriage, wheels, flaps, rudder, ailerons etc most of which are made and just require fitting.

 

With many aluminium kits the parts are already cut and drilled and sheet covering is also preformed & predrilled so it all just needs alignment and riveting.

 

Then there are kits like mine that consisted of rolls of sheet, lengths of aluminium extrusions, and some fibreglass bits straight out of the mould. Everything had to be bent, shaped, drilled, rivetted, bonded, glued, glassed and bolted. Wings spars had to be fabricated from scratch etc. A kit like this will not suit everyone and it requires some good engineering and manufacturing skills as many parts needed to be made from sheet and extrusions. I basically built the aircraft from the professionally drawn plans & photographs of actual aircraft. As a retired engineer I found the process relatively easy but did ring the supplier several times when my engineering logic and his did not meet eye to eye. 

 

It is very rewarding though to fly an aircraft you have built yourself and have confidence in its strength and the quality of its construction.

 

I probably saved around 35k but that wasn't important for me at all. The build process was a fantastic journey & I am really glad I did it.

 

If you want to build a kit purely to save money, then forget it & buy something factory made. If you qualify as an RAA L1 you can perform basic maintenance tasks yourself if it is RAA registered factory built, otherwise you will need to pay for all maintenance.

[CAV0K]

Thanks everyone,

 

So regarding maintenance, if you build you can do all the maintenance yourself or choose to use a LAME, however if you buy factory built (new or secondhand) you must use a LAME?

 

Also if you were to buy a factory built aircraft, but second hand, and I wanted to upgrade the avionics, could I do that myself?

 

Thanks again 

[KRviator]

13 minutes ago, CAV0K said:

Thanks everyone,

 

So regarding maintenance, if you build you can do all the maintenance yourself or choose to use a LAME, however if you buy factory built (new or secondhand) you must use a LAME?

 

Also if you were to buy a factory built aircraft, but second hand, and I wanted to upgrade the avionics, could I do that myself?

 

Thanks again 

Build it yourself, Experimental VH- or RAAus = Can maintain it yourself.
Buy a Factory RAAus aircraft = Can maintain it yourself if not used for hire/reward
Buy a second-hand RAAus aircraft = Can maintain it yourself if not used for hire/reward
Buy a second-hand VH-Experimental = Must use LAME (Or original builder UNLESS you have previously built a "similar" aircraft - ie I built my RV-9A. I can sell it, and buy a second-hand RV-10, Sonex, or other metal Experimental and maintain it myself. I cannot buy a second-hand Long-Ez, Jabiru 430 or Velocity, nor anything with folding feet from memory)

Buy a Factory (new or second-hand) VH-aircraft = Must use LAME

Pretty sure for the avionics upgrade you mention, under RAAus because it is factory built, you ned to do the MARAP process - but I've since left RAAus so am not 100% on it. 

To modify a factory-built VH- aircraft you'll need a LAME to do it, either under an Engineering Order, or an STC.

Edited May 9, 2022 by KRviator

[rgmwa]

2 hours ago, KRviator said:

Buy a second-hand VH-Experimental = Must use LAME (Or original builder UNLESS you have previously built a "similar" aircraft - ie I built my RV-9A. I can sell it, and buy a second-hand RV-10, Sonex, or other metal Experimental and maintain it myself. 

You can work on a VH-Experimental, but need a LAME to sign it off unless, as KR says, you have built a similar aircraft.

[Yenn]

One advantage of building it yourself is that most homebuilts or kit aircraft are better handling that the Cessna, Piper Beech type of aircraft. They are also a bit more sturdy than the RAAus plastic fantastics.

If you have no health issues, then join SAAA and build a GA plane. No annual rego or membership fees and being the builder you can maintain it yourself. Even if you have health issues, you can get a GA medical approval from your GP usually.

[derekliston]

1 hour ago, Yenn said:

One advantage of building it yourself is that most homebuilts or kit aircraft are better handling that the Cessna, Piper Beech type of aircraft. They are also a bit more sturdy than the RAAus plastic fantastics.

If you have no health issues, then join SAAA and build a GA plane. No annual rego or membership fees and being the builder you can maintain it yourself. Even if you have health issues, you can get a GA medical approval from your GP usually.

Not quite 100% correct. No RAAus rego or membership but SAAA subscription or else expensive inspections etc I believe. Also, although you can do your own maintenance you will have to do a maintenance procedures course which again has a cost attached and lastly, if like me you have had a heart attack you will have to deal with CASA medical assessment every year thereafter, together with expensive stress echocardiogram!

[walrus]

CAVOK, let me share my experience.

 

The overriding key determinant of your choice of options is TIME. It's not money, not technical sophistication, not performance.

 

Your most precious resource is time. Consider industry statistics - allegedly only 50% of home built aircraft are completed by the original owner. No matter what you buy as a kit, you are looking at a minimum of four years before this thing flies - and that assumes you are diligent, have no sudden health problems, have a stable healthy family and job. The probability of all that decreases with age. Who are you going to be in four years? Do you really have four years? Want to bet?

 

For that reason, your skills, age and experience are very important. Not because you can't learn to do stuff but because learning takes TIME - and you don't have as much as you think.

 

So if you want to build, its time to first flight that counts and the older you are, the more it counts.

 

You want the glass cockpit, electronically injected engine, flush rivets and a gorgeous paint job? Be prepared to add at least two years to the build. You want a quick build, then its a kit, pop rivets, square edges, steam gauges and a carburetted Lycoming. Understand that EVERY time you increase technical sophistication you have to slow down to learn.

 

of course none of this matters if you are building the second airplane because you are down the learning curve by then.

 

So think realistically about the time you have available - then add 30% contingency to the build. be aware that the airframe will go together really fast. Fitting systems will be much slower and the 'last minute" jobs will go on forever.

 

I lost three years of build to family matters and another two to technical sophistication and over specifying things like paint - you will die of old age before most aircraft corrode if you take a little care.

 

Time is everything.

[Blueadventures]

IF you can get to Old Station or another flyin near where you live speak with some builders.  Cheers

[Garfly]

Some interesting recent vids on the topic

 

 

 

 

[rodgerc]

On the subject of power plant cost, based on my experience it makes absolutely no sense to spend a single cent more on any engine, until the millisecond after the less expensive option selected earlier starts to play up. At that instant, a pilot’s perspective is changed and the sound reasoning behind earlier decisions is brought into sharp focus. 

[sfGnome]

Apologies if this question has already been discussed in the past, but how much do people set aside for painting (both do it yourself or commercially done)? I’m not talking anything fancy; even plain white, no stripes. I noticed on a kit supplier’s page an estimate of USD20k for a plain job in a local car shop. Is that fair dinkum?

[Mike Gearon]

7 minutes ago, sfGnome said:

Apologies if this question has already been discussed in the past, but how much do people set aside for painting (both do it yourself or commercially done)? I’m not talking anything fancy; even plain white, no stripes. I noticed on a kit supplier’s page an estimate of USD20k for a plain job in a local car shop. Is that fair dinkum?

That’s crazy. I’ve taken a clue from one of the builders I’ve followed on this forum. We will build a temporary spray booth in the hangar complete with air flow and  filters. I sprayed cars as a teenager. Hobby rebuilding them. It’s not that hard.

 

Good prep. Correct paint. Good steady even start to the pass, press trigger continue steady even run (distance from surface) with follow through after trigger released. Move down 50% and repeat. It ain’t rocket science.

[kgwilson]

I painted my aircraft myself. I'd never spray painted anything before. Preparation is the most time consuming. I watched several you tube spray painting clips & practiced on my hangar doors.

 

The aluminium & fibreglass surfaces were treated with Prekote, then primed with HiChem super etch. I used a high quality 2 pack gloss paint, Dulux Luxathane for the white & Dulux Quantum FX medium fleck metallic blue. The paint cost was about $600.00. I bought a HVLP spray set on Ebay for $35.00, an in line dehumidifier & I already owned a 2.5HP compressor. I painted the aircraft in the hangar on still days without any booth but I had the front door open & an extractor fan in the back wall. Never got any dust or bugs on anything. Practice and paint consistency is the key. Several light mist coats is always better than 1 solid coat as you avoid runs & the final gloss is free from orange peel.

 

Total cost for everything including sandpaper, mixing cups, masking tape etc was less that $1,000.00.

 

A cheap professional job will cost about 10k but you will need to do all the prep & priming. 20k is probably about right if you do nothing.

[facthunter]

When the fabric was treated with Nitrocellulose  dope you just added silver to the last couple of coats and do the bits near the engine with gloss enamel so you  could wipe the oil etc off.. Paint can add a lot of weight to a plane and thick paint on fabric cracks. On a metal skinned plane I'd treat the Laps with a good primer. 2 pack is hard to touch  up. Acrylic lacquer can Be feathered into a surface for a repair if the colour matches well. Stripping paint off a plane is pretty scary as it could cause corrosion in the Laps and you certainly don't need any surface scratches.   Nev

[rgmwa]

Mine cost $6500 by an auto shop with previous aircraft painting experience in 2014. Three colours, no heavy coats. That included all prep including finishing all the fibreglass. I thought it was good value. Another builder just had his RV12 painted by a well known local aircraft painter - also three colours and I think he paid $16,000. 

[Kyle Communications]

I recently had my rebuilt Sav S painted by a local car painter...he did a nice job. I supplied the paint which probably cost more than what i paid for the painting. The paint was ex Virgin airlines Akzoknoble which apparently is std airbus paint. It was done in a booth. It cost me $5200. He did all the alu prep and the undercoat..sanding and painting of everything..I still have the cowl to do yet though but I may do that myself. The painting is the easy part but the prep is a killer. I painted my last Sav and the prep was the worst part. The S-21 i will most likly get him to do that as well..it takes a whole lot of grief out of the build. The average I hear from most people is a car painter will charge somewhere between 8 to 10k for a simple paint job now.

 

You will spend 3 or 4 times the time to prep than to do the actual painting..thats what your really paying for

 

 

[jackc]

Can’t wait to see your S-21 build, Mark 🙂 

[Kyle Communications]

Same here Jack :).....its getting closer but still got a bit to do on Mabel. The day Mabel gets moved out to the hangar.... "The Mistress" will be begin 🙂