Rans S21 Outbound build French Island. Nic and Mike. Start date 3rd May 2022. Finish date 1st February 2023. Target $ spend to be determined.

[RFguy]

From my rather critical POV, the UL twin problem indicates the these  issues are ahead / beyond the UL staff and the buy  is goign to need ot odo their own system design , and perhaps get advice .... My thoughts are , isnt this an obvious failure mode / system design problem that should be a well worn path by now for UL. 

Beware of twin of anything in electronics, same goes for everything else.

 

Ultimately, the error though lies with the pilots not doing their checklist (check alternator contribution / battery voltage   post start) 

 

 

 

[facthunter]

The more complex it is the more MR Murphy will have a say in the final out come. You need to  fly the plane at the same time as you're playing with this stuff.   Fancy expecting the Battery to raise the U/C with so short a CHARGE TIME.  Nev

[3rd harmonic]

On 17/03/2024 at 1:43 PM, RFguy said:

take a good look at the fuel injection pump current requirements under various condix, they can pull a fair bit, and that you might have BOTH pumps on due to design (or error ?) 

Given that good quality, sealed non liquid electrolyte batteries generally do not have sudden failures, it's probably a good option as a power source.  a strong schottky diode or MOSFET schottky implementation with some sort of current limit would be a simple and reliable option.  A big schottky with say only 20V 30V reverse barrier will be pretty low voltage drop.  maybe something like 12 or 14 gauge wire will serve as a current limit....maybe aim for wire resistance = diode drop under normal conditions, as a starting point. that will be fine as long as the charging system gets up to 14.4 , 14.6V region

Good point regarding the fuel pumps - yes normal fuel pump powered off the normal bus and the reserve pump powered off the ECU bus behind a diode on the small standby battery. I've used these shottky diodes for a caravan 12V system where i wanted isolation from different charging sources, with both diodes in the package in parallel, for a very low forward voltage drop 

VISHAY DUAL 150V 80A DIODE PACKAGE

In an aircraft i'd be looking at 2x packages, for a total of 4x diodes in parallel.

 

The DA42 accident is really just a lesson in redundancy engineering that could have EASILY been avoided IMO. I'd say they had a partially sulphated, poorly charged battery that collapsed under load when the L/G was retracted, of course a backup ECU battery modification was suggested AFTER the accident.

Whoever came up with the electrical system design obviously didn't have much imagination...

Unfortunately battery voltage post start and alternator current output check ironically will look artificially GOOD with a sulphated battery. As the voltage will come up quickly and the charge current will be low with the inability of the battery to absorb any charge. A load test will quickly show a battery with high internal impedance.

 

I don't think there's been any official findings on the UL power velocity twin accident ref reg: N106VT??

Edited March 19 by 3rd harmonic
Extra comments

[RFguy]

too many engineers have never been technicians

 

dont put diodes in parallel, they DO NOT current share. but by all means put two in parallel for redundancy, just rate each diode at the full requirement

Diode- use a diode with a Vr of around 40V. that will have a far lower Vd than a 150V diode.

If you like Vishay, suggest  https://www.vishay.com/en/product/97219/       https://www.vishay.com/docs/97219/vs-175bgq045hn4.pdf

At Tj=125 and If of 20A, it will have a Vforward of about 0.3V, IE about 7Watts to dissipate. bolt to a chunk of aluminium, at least 20 sq inches surface area, 3mm thick.
it will need a silicon washer and bush under the tab against the heatsink, since the tabs are live.

Edited March 19 by RFguy

[3rd harmonic]

Yeah, i know they won't share the current evenly, although 2x devices on the same die at the same temp won't be too bad, yes it is really about redundancy.

Parallel MOSFET's will because the negative temp Coefficient, BJT's with positive temp won't hence the emitter resistors that give some local current feedback.

As generally seen in audio amplifier output stages (and i have repaired MANY!!)...

The VISHAY bolt on devices would be a good option, abit of a heat sink would be needed.

Shottky diodes don't like high reverse voltages, 60V PIV would be nice maybe.

 

Edited March 19 by 3rd harmonic

[RFguy]

I think 30V on a 40V is OK, that's plenty of headroom even under elevated temperature.

[Mike Gearon]

Finally an update.

 

Build 1 UL520t

Some 6 months later we have a mount back from UL USA that is wrong for the second time. Holes are out and the trike mount is totally wrong. Incorrect size tube. We have given up and won’t be going back to UL USA. Pic is a visit to Brian at Latrobe airport. A super helpful and knowledgeable guy. He will put cut the Rans mount up and add to the UL supplied mount. We really should be moving finally on this and flying in the next few months.

 

Build 2

 

Finally finished the hangar with concrete. Floor finish is a crap paint. I’m going to upgrade to the 2 pack Nic used. It’ll do for now. The spray booth is in and I’ve moved all the bits and set up movable tool and part racks.

 

Started today on wing tanks. Proseal and fuel cap neoprene gasket. This is a newer version. For any new builds they recommend adding the gasket to the wing skin. That would certainly be easier. I had to keep getting on the floor and looking up to center the fuel cap.

 

should be nothing to stop build 2 moving along at a fair pace now. Well, subject to spending time with Nic on build 1 and possibly going to Osh Kosh and Taiwan. My wife is stuck in Nebraska right now for an operation and also spending time with her 101 year old mother. I’m thinking of ordering an RV14 quick build kit. The RV6 is something I’ve really started to love flying.

 

 

 

Edited June 16 by Mike Gearon
Image problems. Black again until resized down.

[Mike Gearon]

Update. July 11th 2024

 

Nic Aircraft build 1.

 

We’ve decided not to share pics on the UL installation for now. It’s been a huge stuff up from the UL USA guys. They have apparently changed their subcontractor so things may get better. Be aware communication with Ray is very weak. You’ll have to push to make things happen. Constant follow up. As my old business partner used to say “you have to organise the disorganised”

 

UL Europe and UL Australia are good so don’t be too put off by the USA.

 

We though the engine mount finally arriving after more than 6 months was good until then finding the trike mount was wrong size. This was after finding the lower mount holes wrong and having fixed. We went back to Brian at Latrobe airport and he quickly cut the trike part off our unused Titan mount and we were able to mount the engine. (Brian is a great guy and does excellent work)

 

We now need a prop. The prop I purchased from Sensenich ended up being wrong. We are looking for options and may settle on Sterna 3 blade.

 

Aircraft 2.

 

Finally getting back into the build and surprised how rusty it feels to be riveting. Only riveted in a few fuel tank ribs and it was slow going. Will get back up to speed.

 

I screwed up! I’m very aware I’m a day dreamy inventor and it’s hard to stick with the job at hand. For flying I’ve had to make it a daily learning experience and keep at it. Recent BFR I stacked on a few good tips at Tyabb.  I’m on YouTube’s and extra learning to hopefully be sharp. For flying I have strict checklists for all stages of flight. Runup, before entering runway, climb out, cruise or CLEAROFF, descent, pre landing and on final. 
 

For building aircraft I have YouTube’s I review the night before or morning of. I carefully prepare parts and check off the parts, the illustrated pics and the text. I then look for gotcha’s. Then start and quadruple check.

 

So, the stuff up. I thought the “gotcha” was going to be putting the upper and lower fuel sight tubes on the wrong side of the tank. Absolutely fixated on getting that right. Very pleased the 3” hole for fuel in top and all holes went perfectly. Then the fuel outlet 3/4” hole was carefully measured and drilled. Then…. Disaster. I was rinsing the tanks out with water. It is recommended to use a vacuum. I am sure water is better. There is no way water is going to going to be able to hang around in the tank. Same day in sun and the 100ml of remaining water is gone and anyway….. I noticed the water was draining out the leading edge fat side and not the trailing edge thinner rear of tank. Couldn’t believe it. I’ve spent the last two weeks messing around with polyethylene machined insert PROSEALed in place and soldering iron melted the outer area. It was okay. I busted it out as you’ll see in video. Much cheaper to buy new tanks than the tiny lingering doubt about those tank plugs.

 

Yes, I could have put in a blank. Problem was predrilled holes for cap and the tank sits right up against the leading edge D. I would have had to cut a small extra hole in the D near the wing root. Again. Risk of weakening would be so minimal. Maybe .0001% weakening. Still. Not doing it. Tanks ordered. A $1,000 USD or 1500 Aussie dollar mistake plus shipping. My wife in Nebraska could bring them back next week except she’s bringing 3 suit cases of her stuff.

 

What I did find out about Proseal is interesting. It is fuel proof of course. It may adhere to aluminum better but….. for plastic even roughed up,with sandpaper it is really just a gasket. A sticky gasket and don’t ever expect it to work like a glue.

 

I’m koala proofing the trees right now. The furry little bastards are going to kill 70 mature gums. So, the aircraft can wait just a bit. The trees can’t. Still, I think in the next month we could be flying the UL engined aircraft and mine might be 3 months away. Painting is happening next week. Fuselage, control surfaces and wings. Gray below done, white curving up to partial cover tail then all the rest red. Then onto the rigging and then engine install.

 

Maybe 3 months? Maybe finished by Christmas 2024? 
 

Pics are the polyethylene machines insert and how poorly the Proseal bonds to plastic.

 

Second pic is the koala proofing taking me away from build for a bit. 
 

 

 

 

[facthunter]

Koala's are getting scarce. Nev

[Kyle Communications]

Just machine up a plug from alu and machine in a Oring in the front flat surface ND A ORING IN THE REAR THREADED NUT WITH WASHER FACE FOR THE INSIDE. THEN IT WONT LEAK WHEN FITTED AND NO NEED TO PROSEAL. MAKE SURE BOTH ORINGS ARE VITON AND FITTED CORRECTLY INTO THIER SLOTS..opps not retyping sorry about the caps

 

 

[BrendAn]

2 hours ago, Mike Gearon said:

Update. July 11th 2024

 

Nic Aircraft build 1.

 

We’ve decided not to share pics on the UL installation for now. It’s been a huge stuff up from the UL USA guys. They have apparently changed their subcontractor so things may get better. Be aware communication with Ray is very weak. You’ll have to push to make things happen. Constant follow up. As my old business partner used to say “you have to organise the disorganised”

 

UL Europe and UL Australia are good so don’t be too put off by the USA.

 

We though the engine mount finally arriving after more than 6 months was good until then finding the trike mount was wrong size. This was after finding the lower mount holes wrong and having fixed. We went back to Brian at Latrobe airport and he quickly cut the trike part off our unused Titan mount and we were able to mount the engine. (Brian is a great guy and does excellent work)

 

We now need a prop. The prop I purchased from Sensenich ended up being wrong. We are looking for options and may settle on Sterna 3 blade.

 

Aircraft 2.

 

Finally getting back into the build and surprised how rusty it feels to be riveting. Only riveted in a few fuel tank ribs and it was slow going. Will get back up to speed.

 

I screwed up! I’m very aware I’m a day dreamy inventor and it’s hard to stick with the job at hand. For flying I’ve had to make it a daily learning experience and keep at it. Recent BFR I stacked on a few good tips at Tyabb.  I’m on YouTube’s and extra learning to hopefully be sharp. For flying I have strict checklists for all stages of flight. Runup, before entering runway, climb out, cruise or CLEAROFF, descent, pre landing and on final. 
 

For building aircraft I have YouTube’s I review the night before or morning of. I carefully prepare parts and check off the parts, the illustrated pics and the text. I then look for gotcha’s. Then start and quadruple check.

 

So, the stuff up. I thought the “gotcha” was going to be putting the upper and lower fuel sight tubes on the wrong side of the tank. Absolutely fixated on getting that right. Very pleased the 3” hole for fuel in top and all holes went perfectly. Then the fuel outlet 3/4” hole was carefully measured and drilled. Then…. Disaster. I was rinsing the tanks out with water. It is recommended to use a vacuum. I am sure water is better. There is no way water is going to going to be able to hang around in the tank. Same day in sun and the 100ml of remaining water is gone and anyway….. I noticed the water was draining out the leading edge fat side and not the trailing edge thinner rear of tank. Couldn’t believe it. I’ve spent the last two weeks messing around with polyethylene machined insert PROSEALed in place and soldering iron melted the outer area. It was okay. I busted it out as you’ll see in video. Much cheaper to buy new tanks than the tiny lingering doubt about those tank plugs.

 

Yes, I could have put in a blank. Problem was predrilled holes for cap and the tank sits right up against the leading edge D. I would have had to cut a small extra hole in the D near the wing root. Again. Risk of weakening would be so minimal. Maybe .0001% weakening. Still. Not doing it. Tanks ordered. A $1,000 USD or 1500 Aussie dollar mistake plus shipping. My wife in Nebraska could bring them back next week except she’s bringing 3 suit cases of her stuff.

 

What I did find out about Proseal is interesting. It is fuel proof of course. It may adhere to aluminum better but….. for plastic even roughed up,with sandpaper it is really just a gasket. A sticky gasket and don’t ever expect it to work like a glue.

 

I’m koala proofing the trees right now. The furry little bastards are going to kill 70 mature gums. So, the aircraft can wait just a bit. The trees can’t. Still, I think in the next month we could be flying the UL engined aircraft and mine might be 3 months away. Painting is happening next week. Fuselage, control surfaces and wings. Gray below done, white curving up to partial cover tail then all the rest red. Then onto the rigging and then engine install.

 

Maybe 3 months? Maybe finished by Christmas 2024? 
 

Pics are the polyethylene machines insert and how poorly the Proseal bonds to plastic.

 

Second pic is the koala proofing taking me away from build for a bit. 
 

 

 

 

shouldn't be trying to starve koalas. are there other trees for them.

[Mike Gearon]

Bloody koalas! I see I shouldn’t  have mentioned them. A quick brief on French island koalas.

 

Our koalas have no STD’s. Whatever sick

bastard did that to them on the mainland hasn’t come to French island. We are over run with them. Parks regularly takes 20 or so from my property to relocate on mainland. They also neuter females as a control measure.

 

French island is 40,000 acres and half or more is parks. The koalas have plenty of trees to choose from. The specific problem I have is blue gums introduced from the mainland. They are apparently delicious if you’re a koala. My trees won’t do them any good when dead. They go back and back for the new shoots after eating the tree bare. The new shoots must be even more delicious.

 

So, I’ve procrastinated this for years. Right now the trees are reaching the point of no return. I’ve had to act. The koalas will amble back  to parks land. No animals were harmed in the making of the S21

 

Edited July 11 by Mike Gearon
Spell correct

[Mike Gearon]

1 hour ago, Kyle Communications said:

Just machine up a plug from alu and machine in a Oring in the front flat surface ND A ORING IN THE REAR THREADED NUT WITH WASHER FACE FOR THE INSIDE. THEN IT WONT LEAK WHEN FITTED AND NO NEED TO PROSEAL. MAKE SURE BOTH ORINGS ARE VITON AND FITTED CORRECTLY INTO THIER SLOTS..opps not retyping sorry about the caps

 

 

Aluminum a good idea! There are also threaded fitting  blanks available with a thin face. The problem is any thickness on leading edge side pushes the tank back away from the fuel tank holes I’d drilled. Especially combination of the blank face and the Viton washer.
 

I could remove a little material from the leading edge extrusion. It’s near root and I just don’t feel good about weakening a spot.

[facthunter]

I put in a lot of ribbon  (manna) gums Mike on my block and the koala's would strip them Bare. Eventually Dogs got all the koalas and many of the owners thought that was funny. Pretty SICK I reckon. At one time I could always find one to  show visitors without much effort.  Nev

[Mike Gearon]

2 hours ago, facthunter said:

I put in a lot of ribbon  (manna) gums Mike on my block and the koala's would strip them Bare. Eventually Dogs got all the koalas and many of the owners thought that was funny. Pretty SICK I reckon. At one time I could always find one to  show visitors without much effort.  Nev

I looked those up. Interesting gum. I’ve planted around 500 trees this year. Mostly species that koalas don’t like. Can’t understand your neighbours. I’m lucky on the island. Great people mostly and my next door neighbour is the best of them. 
 

Here’s a quote on the blue gum….Queensland Blue Gum (Eucalyptus tereticornis) – the best koala food tree of all, this very large tree (to 50 metres) is fast-growing and provides habitat for many wildlife species. 

 

I posted a link today to the the Rans S21 USA builders. They’ll like the koala diversion.   

 

 

[Mike Gearon]

I’m not anti wildlife. It’s part of the attraction of the island. Here’s a pic just now outside the living room window. Sadly this pair are down to 4 from 5 goslings. Wedgetails and hawks are always overhead. I have to watch the little dog doesn’t get taken.

 

The Cape Barren are pretty cool. My neighbour witnessed a male rise up to intersect a hawk coming for young ones and hawk feathers went everywhere. 
 

I have to land in between these guys on the runway. They are actually pretty good at see and avoid and just sitting on the runway as I land past one pair and before the next pair and a bit of a diversion around the swan mid runway. They aren’t as much of a worry as the ibis and waterhens that are unpredictable.

 

 

Edited July 11 by Mike Gearon

[BrendAn]

10 hours ago, Mike Gearon said:

Bloody koalas! I see I shouldn’t  have mentioned them. A quick brief on French island koalas.

 

Our koalas have no STD’s. Whatever sick

bastard did that to them on the mainland hasn’t come to French island. We are over run with them. Parks regularly takes 20 or so from my property to relocate on mainland. They also neuter females as a control measure.

 

French island is 40,000 acres and half or more is parks. The koalas have plenty of trees to choose from. The specific problem I have is blue gums introduced from the mainland. They are apparently delicious if you’re a koala. My trees won’t do them any good when dead. They go back and back for the new shoots after eating the tree bare. The new shoots must be even more delicious.

 

So, I’ve procrastinated this for years. Right now the trees are reaching the point of no return. I’ve had to act. The koalas will amble back  to parks land. No animals were harmed in the making of the S21

 

thats good. plenty of food and a healthy population.  

[facthunter]

Don't tackle pelicans. They are too big.  Wedge tail eagles even at 8,000 ft. Seen one take a C-180 wing leading edge back to the Mainspar of the wing. Nev.

[skippydiesel]

On 18/03/2024 at 10:00 AM, BurnieM said:

Clarify idle speed;

1400 is with zero throttle

 

Normally we use 2000 for warm up

Hmmmm!

 

When I cold start, with "zero" throttle, my 912ULS engine runs at 2500 rpm.

I immediately reduce choke by 1/2 - pause for a second or so -  reduce /close by second 1/2 and increase throttle to maintain 2500 rpm (top of Green arc) for warm up.

I assumed this to be normal cold start procedure/ warm up

[Mike Gearon]

Update. Aircraft 1

We have a Sterna 3 blade prop on order. 5 weeks for delivery so we really could be flying soon. We have a few updates on the UL520t’s that failed in the USA. NTSB report should be out soon and we suspect the twin that failed was related to problems beyond the voltage drop. It didn’t make sense anyway that the battery drain voltage drop that was said to take the ECU’s out wasn’t offset by the alternator. 
 

Aircraft 2.

 

I think this is about to get really moving. Other things are dropping back with the exception of a trip to China in a few weeks chasing wind turbine parts. Aerobatic training next week if the weather improves.

 

Nic knew I was discouraged over stuffing up the tanks so suggested I go over and wire up the control sticks and he’d supervise. That worked and it felt good to see at least some progress. I’ve painted most of the hangar floor this weekend. See pic. It’s a 2 pack PPG epoxy. 20 litres of part A and 20 litres of part B. So, 40 litres covered some 180sqm. $1,400 dollars so not bad value. I’d tried cheaping out with one part paving paint and it’s crap. Did provide a base though so the epoxy went further.

 

Fuel tanks have shipped from Rans. They are really responsive. $1,700 USD including air freight. Painting fuselage and wings next week if all goes well.

 

 

 

 

[Mike Gearon]

Update.

 

Aircraft 1

 

See pic. We had the UL agent out with a really switched on guy. Jason. Jason really knows his way around electrical. Nic and Jason have a similar background in electronics. Between Nic and Jason they managed to solve a few glitches. Well worth the visit.

 

The UL520t is running. Sounds fantastic. We have the Titan Whirlwind prop on for now and have limited running to some 15 minutes. Can’t run it much more until we can get it up to operating speed. The old dilemma of wanting to do ground testing and needing it in the air WOT to prevent glazing. Might tie the bastard down and run WOT once cowling is done or we run some temporary top on the engine to get air to the rear cylinders that will run hot without air directed downward is my thinking. 

 

Prop has been a huge drama. We had a prop from Sensenich that looked tiny in comparison to the Whirlwind. We’d ordered and received this a year ago. See pic and you’ll understand why we’ve been reluctant to put the Sensenich on. I talked with Don from Sensenich just this morning and had a great download on props. Turns out big isn’t better. Big props for STOL and smaller props for cruise. Also, the pitch distribution along the blade plays an important part.

 

We decided to return the prop to Sensenich and have on order a Sensenich carbon forged 3 blade 79.5” that’s suitable for Lycoming 360 up to 220hp 2800rpm. That’s our sweet spot with the 220hp turbo normalised max 2700rpm and we suspect the 220hp is above actual available hp when you crunch the numbers on engine size.

 

So, in 3 weeks time we should have a great prop and time to get the cowling sorted. 

 

 

[Mike Gearon]

Aircraft 2.

 

i have replacement fuel tanks. Started work on these sort of…… Last year the aircraft was moving forward fast. This year I’m yet to commit to the build again. Every week so far it’s the week where I get the fuel tanks finished, tested and installed then paint the fuselage that’s sitting in a rotisserie, paint the wings and other parts.

 

Get the wheels on then the wings and get really enthusiastic. 
 

I’ll put pictures up when that happens. At the moment huge effort has gone into wind turbines. Pic here in China last week visiting a supplier. I’ll have the generator shipping to my Taiwan factory where patent applied items are being fabricated. It’ll then come to French island for testing before early production runs. Not time consuming now but patents and CAD work have been huge time consumers. 
 

At  least the wind turbine  has aerofoils. It’s sort of aircraft related

 

The VAWT (Vertical Axis Wind Turbine) pictured is interesting. It’s 3kw but the reality is it’s half the efficiency of HAWT’s. (Horizontal axis…. )
 

The VAWT are IMO beautiful and they are low maintenance so some will be built. The company is named… WWW.IN2WIND.COM I liked WINDY but on advice from trademark attorney there are too many conflicts so it’s IN2WIND. I was third largest supplier of rowing machines in the world with a company started when I was 42. We will see if at 66 there’s the energy to make it happen again. Maybe and I don’t have a divorce or need to put children through private  school education so no pressure or self induced pressure I guess. Maybe if I don’t blog about it would be less pressure?

 

Also AEROBATICS. This has dominated my time with ground and air the last month. I think it can be done quite quickly or thoroughly. I’m doing the David Pilkington course out of Moorabbin. OZAEROS. It’s thorough!
 

Ground completed today and total 8- 10 ground hours. Probably took longer because I ask lots of questions.

 

Next flight is recovery from unusual attitudes. Being upside down and chosing the correct course of action to recover is bloody difficult. Lots of chair flying going to be happening. Hammerheads are my favorite thing. Loops not so much. Stomach doesn’t enjoy them. At least I’ll be able to do a few barrel rolls and wing overs in the S21. Not quite sure exactly how aerobatic it is. The Decathalon is +6g and -5g. The S21 is plus 6g and -2g. I’ll find out more before attempting maneuveres that rip the wings off in negative g’s. The David Pilkington course heavily emphasizes the POH and AFM of your aircraft as opposed to the Decathalon setting the rules. 

 

Wife home from Nebraska next week with Rans parts and RV parts in her suitcase so I’m looking forward to her return.

 

 

Edited August 21 by Mike Gearon
I’d written David Pinkerton. If he ever reads this he won’t be annoyed now. Pilkington!

[RFguy]

Hi Mike, nice writeup. Carbon forged ? what is carbon forged ?

 

Be careful of ground running. You need more than air directed down at the fins, you need air forced through them. Given ANY opportunity to go around the fins, air will. (WHich is why Jabiru head cooling is so bollocks) .

Needs full baffles.

be sure to have CHT probes hooked up before running... and keep ur eyes on them !

Edited August 21 by RFguy

[Mike Gearon]

11 hours ago, RFguy said:

Hi Mike, nice writeup. Carbon forged ? what is carbon forged ?

 

Be careful of ground running. You need more than air directed down at the fins, you need air forced through them. Given ANY opportunity to go around the fins, air will. (WHich is why Jabiru head cooling is so bollocks) .

Needs full baffles.

be sure to have CHT probes hooked up before running... and keep ur eyes on them !

Yeah, carbon forged sounds interesting! It was a spell correct from fibre that I missed.

 

Temps. Yes, limited ground running was shut down as the rear cylinders heated up. CHT on all cylinders. I think we may cobble together something to direct the air downward or be more patient and wait on finishing up the engine cowls. 

[facthunter]

Some of the cowls have actual seals  which must fit perfectly to work properly .  A few minutes is all i'd run one uncowled and at high power NO.. .   Nev