So, I emailed Air K motors, a French firm that sells the direct copy of Rotax engines...

[Yenn]

Was this post about Chinese made copies of Rotax engines. If so surely that would be illegal as Rotax did the design and no doubt has the rights to that design.

[tillmanr]

Surely Yenn you don’t think that the Chinese will respect intellectual property.

[kgwilson]

The design patents would have expired years ago. This is not a modern engine design by any means.

[onetrack]

"Registered Design" is the common method used by manufacturers to try and prevent copying, rather than patents. Patents usually need to have an important new principle to be able to be registered, and they normally last for 21 years.

But Registered Designs are commonly used where no major new design principles exist - only the specified shape and style of operation of the part or components - and they're only good for 6 years.

 

This is why aftermarket parts are not normally available for a few years after the manufactured new product appears. However, trying to enforce Registered Design rights and Patent rights in China is a costly and drawn-out exercise, and many companies don't consider it's worth the effort to try and nail Chinese offenders. The greatest effort goes into protecting "Brand Names", logos, and trademarks.

 

If the Chinese try to sell something using a well-known Brand Name or trademark without authorisation, the products are generally seized at the port of entry to the Western country and destroyed.

 

As to the manufacturing processes behind the Chinese Rotax, I would have to opine they are a completely unauthorised copy of the Rotax, reverse engineered - and as long as they do not use Rotax logos, images, and trademarks, or copy Registered Design or Patented parts and components, where the Registered Design and Patent rights are still in force, then they're operating legally. They can also use Rotax part numbers "as reference" without fear of being sued.

 

The greatest single problem with reverse-engineered parts, components or engines, is that the company copying usually has no access to original specifications of metals, alloys, heat treatment/aging methods for hardening and toughening, welding wires used, and a dozen other specified requirements - which means the company copying must examine the part or component and then test for hardness, toughness, elasticity, resistance to corrosion - and also melt parts and components and try to find out the individual constituents of those parts and components, such as trace metal and mineral additives. It can be done, but it is expensive and time consuming to get it exact. An Atomic Absorption Spectrometer is required.

 

Specified tolerances are another area that is unknown, if you do not have the original blueprints and factory specifications. Maybe the Chinese stole them from Rotax - industrial espionage is huge, and the Chinese are at the forefront of that industry.

[planedriver]

On 20/05/2022 at 8:05 AM, planedriver said:

So you wanna clone of a Rolls Royce, or so many other items which have been years in development in the west, then head East young man. Just don't whinge if warranty claims disappoint. Rolex watches are another similar sad story.

 

[walrus]

Onetrack, I'm sorry but No.

 

1. The Chinese are capable of better quality than the Europeans but you have to pay for it. If Chinese quality as supplied by Bunnings, etc. is poor, then that is what we asked for and accepted. Our family company had a 35 year trading history with China.

 

2. Reverse engineering isnt that hard a far as dimensions go. All you need is a Ziess coordinate measuring machine and sufficient samples. If anything, copies often have tighter tolerances and better materials exactly because you don't know the thinking and don't know where you can relax the specs.

 

3. The biggest IP thieves are Israel and the USA. Asian countries are a poor third (amateurish) - again, I speak from experience.

 

4. The typical emerging industry starts by copying. Once that is mastered, they have to do R&D like the rest. They will probably destroy Rotax with better, cheaper products. I want a 915 clone for $10K 🙂

Edited September 18, 2022 by walrus

[facthunter]

Subbing out and cutting corners on material specifications is what makes copied articles fail. The more critical the original design is the more likely the failure. Boeing have done this to themselves.  Nev

[onetrack]

The engine building and mechanical machinery business is one area where the Chinese are still lagging, and will continue to lag for many years. There are a number of factors in the Chinese equipment equation that still weigh heavily on them.

 

1. They consistently fail to produce manuals and service/operation documentation in good English - and more than likely, other languages, too. This is a huge failing on their part. 

If I buy a Western or European country product, it comes with excellent documentation and service manuals, which are critical in this day and age of high-technology in engines and mechanical equipment.

 

2. They consistently fail to understand the "brand name" concept and image of Western and European equipment manufacturing companies - which are carefully nourished, to the point they have legions of followers, company-branded apparel and accessories, that means a loyal and enthusiastic "fan club", and loyal purchasers and followers of their product.

If you buy a Chinese engineered product, it may come from any one of a dozen factories, and wear a dozen different brand names - which mean nothing to buyers. You buy a Wang Li engine, and next month you find it's Long March (or Long Walk) branded engine. You go to get service and support for your Wang Li engine, and you find it's no longer made, and the dealer has folded up, due to lack of "factory support". The factory literature is no longer available, and the parts supply is even sketchier.

 

3. The Chinese still consistently suffer from "quality fade". Read the book "Poorly Made in China" - it was written by an American who spent 20 years in Chinese manufacturing management. Component specifications that start out good, slip, because a cheaper component supplier has been found, who will cut corners on the specifications to supply the item 5% cheaper. Profit is king in China - consistent, repeatable, and enduring quality is sadly lacking in 98% of Chinese products - no matter how much you pay for them. Even Caterpillar got seriously burnt in their first foray into Chinese manufacturing, by making the mistake of going into Joint Venture with a Chinese company - who trashed Caterpillars name and product quality from that factory.

Even when Caterpillar took the Chinese partner to court (in China) and cancelled their manufacturing arrangements, the Chinese partner company continued to produce products bearing the Caterpillar name, kept on using Caterpillar logos, trademarks and branding, without authorisation. The result was chaos, as these "fake", "Caterpillar" engines consistently failed, due to unauthorised power output ratings, and components supplied by unauthorised component suppliers who failed to meet component specifications.

 

4. China still operates under a Communist system, despite the belief that it operates like a Western democratic country. There are failures at every level in China, that are covered up by the Chinese Govt to prevent loss of face - which is a primary factor in Chinese culture. There is a general lack of responsibility, and no ability to pin down one particular dept or manufacturer, when a major engineering problem arises.

As a farmer friend once observed a number of years ago, "Their Communist culture is that the Govt supplies everything. If your engine fails - no big deal, no need to find the fault - the Govt will supply you with a new one." 

Conditions may have changed a little for the better with the major influx of Western manufacturing and management into China in recent years - but unless your Chinese engine or mechanical item of equipment was produced under Western, European or Japanese management inside China, you are still at risk of the Chinese product failing to meet your Western expectations, as regards reliability, endurance, service backup, adequate parts supply, and quality literature.

[walrus]

All that is true Onetrack. However, if you require, inspect and pay for quality, the Chinese will produce it.

[facthunter]

Till someone decides more profit can be made by cutting corners,( and get away with it) because MONEY is the aim." I don't THINK this, I KNOW". (with due acknowledgement to E Macron).. It's sent people I know, Broke.  Nev 

[APenNameAndThatA]

I suspect Walrus and Onetrack are both right. 

[spenaroo]

My father was involved with manufacturing parts in china as a lower cost option for the market.

they sent a sample to be replicated exactly as supplied....
which they did right up to the "made in XXX country" stamp.

But yes, he had to make regular trips over to inspect the production. and ensure that there was no deviation.
as others mentioned the biggest problem is design creep where they change or substitute things.

he mentioned that the Chinese quality control was to lessen the quality until it became unusable. then walk it back one step.