An Experimental (Amateur Built)....Piper Aztec?!?

[KRviator]

So in my ongoing search for a suitable 4-seater, I came across this a few days ago on PlaneSales...
 

Quote

"1966 Piper Aztec Bitzer Experimental

Twin Engine Bitzer Piper Aztec (Experimental) - VH-EBT aircraft. Always hangared. Quick reliable travel for 6 adults plus baggage.

Contact: Dave (040 385 3396, [email protected])

https://ninelima.org/bitzer/

Total Time (TTIS): 4400 hrs, Engine1: 600 hrs, Engine2: 600 hrs

Airframe number: 27-3859"

Now, VH-EBT (apart from being a 747 in years gone by) does show as "Amateur built" on the CAsA register, with (presumably) an "Experimental" CoA to go with it. Given the SAAA is pretty clear on shenanigans such as this (thou shall not do it, kinda thing) - and someone has taken CAsA to the AAT before about trying this on (and lost) can someone perhaps educate me just how this particular Aztec has been issued an Experimental-AB CoA?

From what I can see online, she was originally registered in Seth Effika as ZU-BIY, so I'm guessing it was redone over there and then imported here under the category, but I'm truly at a loss as to how an AP could issue an Experimental (Amateur Built) CoA.

Apart from the fuel flow (21GPH @ Econ Cruse / 155KTAS or 28L/100km compared to the RV's 10L/100km), I'm seriously interested in it, as I could maintain her myself and only require a Condition Inspection from a LAME, and she'll carry full fuel (144 USG) 4 adults, and their bags a longish way - but how many LAME's would sign off on such a bird is my question?!? And what would the chances be of "someone" in CAsA revoking the CoA and leaving you with a 5,000lb, twin engine paperweight?

[Yenn]

You need to look at the certificate of registration, to see what restrictions are place on that aircraft. It could be that it cannot be used fro what you want to do with it.

[KRviator]

Just now, Yenn said:

You need to look at the certificate of registration, to see what restrictions are place on that aircraft. It could be that it cannot be used fro what you want to do with it.

Good point @Yenn - I was thinking about just what OpLims the AP would have mandated. Even if it is just PVT VFR or PVT IFR that'd suit me as I can do my twin training in it and fly the family. There's no interest in charter or having her online at a school. The other thing I was thinking was whether she'd have the CAR 262 approval for "flight over built up areas", though with two type-certified engines I can't see why she wouldn't have it...

[rgmwa]

It's based at Serpentine, and the guys who own it know their stuff when it comes to building and flying.

They've got the jet powered Cri Cri among other things, and Dawie Botes is the author of Kwik EFIS, the Android app.

Apart from seeing it flying, I don't know much about the plane.

 

[facthunter]

EXP VH is used by a lot of warbirds I think if that's what we are talking about here. They were used in PNG and built like a brick outhouse compared with a lot of  other stuff.  I think the airframes are reasonably corrosion proofed.. 155 Knots econ cruise sounds a bit optimistic.  You'll spend real money operating this kind of plane and none of these planes have serious anti icing if you get caught.  Nev.

[KRviator]

3 hours ago, facthunter said:

EXP VH is used by a lot of warbirds I think if that's what we are talking about here.

I think that's Experimental Exhibition, whereas CAsA shows this as Experimental Amateur Built. And I've no idea how anyone has achieved that with what is, really, at the end of the day a factory built aircraft.

 

Quote

You'll spend real money operating this kind of plane and none of these planes have serious anti icing if you get caught.  Nev.

Yep - and that fuel burn is enough to put me off for the performance you're going to get. Though the appeal of a heavy-lifting twin I could maintain myself does have a certain appeal, but whether or not it is enough to win when you look at the hard numbers and $$ to operatee, because lets face it, Avgas isn't getting any cheaper, remains to be seen.

[Thruster88]

I don't believe you would be able to maintain it yourself because it is not essentially the same as your build. Multi engine, retractable gear, hydraulic system etc. Ask the regulator some questions, I am sure you won't get a definitive answer.  🤔

[KRviator]

17 minutes ago, Thruster88 said:

I don't believe you would be able to maintain it yourself because it is not essentially the same as your build. Multi engine, retractable gear, hydraulic system etc. Ask the regulator some questions, I am sure you won't get a definitive answer.  🤔

I thought anyone could maintain an Experimental, you just couldn't sign off the 100-hourly? Will go check the latest CAsA Instrument and report back!

EDIT: 
Nope, T88 is correct as things stand now - unless I welded the downlocks in place and turned it into a fixed-gear, you need to meet one of the clauses in Instrument 18/22 to maintain it - so long as the aircraft are essentially similar, being defined as "not" essentially similar if:

if they are made of different materials; or
if 1 has retractable landing gear and the other has fixed landing gear; or
if 1 has electrically-powered landing gear and the other has hydraulically-powered landing gear; or
if 1 has electrically-powered flaps and the other has hydraulically-powered flaps.

But that looks like it'll change with CAsA proposing the following:

Quote

Who can performance maintenance of Amateur-built aircraft?
Any person may perform maintenance other than an annual condition inspection on an amateur-built aircraft. No licences or qualifications will be required under the legislation however the annual condition inspection may only be carried out by:

the holder of an AMT 2 or 3 certificate for the aircraft or one that is essentially similar (AMT 3 certificate only)
a licensed aircraft maintenance engineer (LAME)
an approved maintenance organisation (AMO).

Source

 

Edited May 31, 2022 by KRviator

[red750]

Photos, video.

 

 

https://ninelima.org/bitzer/photos.html

[onetrack]

That's a great aerial shot of Augusta, Hardy Inlet and Cape Leeuwin with the lighthouse.

 

For a 600 hr engine, the start in the video wasn't particularly inspiring - unless the battery was down.

 

https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/stirling/miscellaneous-goods/piper-aztec-aircraft/1295781918

 

Twin six Lycomings, wow, he must be on first name terms with the fuel suppliers.

[Thruster88]

That is a normal start for a fuel injected lycoming. The engine is primed to a slightly over rich mixture, mixture control then placed in cut off, crank engine until it fires, advance mixture control. Works every time, always some black smoke. A typical Van's RV would match the Aztecs cruise speed on 1/3 the fuel flow.

[facthunter]

All easy with 2 engines running. You need to fly regularly to be fluent in these planes to boss it around.  I reckon you'd need to find some work for it or it would send you broke. It's built like a real plane.  Not like a Senica. . Twins are OK for some trips. The second engine does give more certainty of arrival but   assy must be mastered or you will be more dangerous. Money money. Nev

[Marty_d]

When I looked at the Gumtree ad this one popped up too... some assembly required, but less than half the price! 😁

 

https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/huntingdale/miscellaneous-goods/partenavia-p68-victor-aircraft-io-360-a1b6-200hp/1295052067

[onetrack]

I dunno Marty, it looks like a well-used Alfa-Romeo to me! - high performance, high maintenance, and plenty of rust!!

 

Six seater is pretty good, you could take Mum and all the kids, plus a friend! Do you reckon you could handle this cockpit, and two donks? 

 

 

[Marty_d]

7 hours ago, onetrack said:

I dunno Marty, it looks like a well-used Alfa-Romeo to me! - high performance, high maintenance, and plenty of rust!!

 

Six seater is pretty good, you could take Mum and all the kids, plus a friend! Do you reckon you could handle this cockpit, and two donks? 

 

 

Not only could I not handle all that, I couldn't handle the running costs, the maintenance costs, the storage costs... jeez even the fuel for a flight would require remortgaging, these days.

[RFguy]

You could fly it slow and aggressively lean and get it down from a $400 hamburger to a $300 hamburger perhaps.

 

Interestingly, on our trip to Old Station,  Thruster88's RV6A used less slightly less fuel at 120k indicated than my J230 same speed !  The Lyco was well leaned, something you cant do with a Jabiru engine due the the budget constraints on the engine design. Looking at the lyco book, looking up fuel flow, rpm, MAP,  about 50% power, right on the 'lean limit' curves.

[440032]

Wow. You were involved in the budget for the Jabiru engine design?

[onetrack]

That FB site is private, and only visible to members of that group. If you're genuinely keen on selling an item, that is no way to advertise the item.

 

Edited June 3, 2022 by onetrack

[onetrack]

This one is very nice, and it's new, and ready to fly! - oh, and they're open to offers, too! It's a 4-seater, 145kn cruise, power from 2 x 912S3's at 100HP each, 2000hr TBO, retractable undercarriage, all metal with full epoxy corrosion proofing.

Just have to go for it, and extend the borrowings a little! I was somewhat surprised to see Tecnam have already built 578 of them, so you wouldn't own a "one-hit wonder".

 

https://www.aviationtrader.com.au/listing/for-sale/213476701/tecnam-p2006t-piston-twin-aircraft

[onetrack]

Wow, she's certainly a historic aircraft with a 1959 production year. According to Ed Coates, VH-CAU is one of 4 Twin Commanders ordered by the DCA to replace their Avro Ansons. David Eyre appears to err is saying that only three 560's have been registered in Australia. It would be a nice machine to get fully operational again, but I'd imagine you'd need a fairly big budget to cover the restoration work.

 

http://www.edcoatescollection.com/ac1/austcl/VH-CAU(2).html

 

https://aeropedia.com.au/content/aero-commander-560/

[facthunter]

Think it would have Piston engines originally. Think I came across it in Cocos Island where it was stuck with HF radio not operating. We offered to relay VHF for them en route back to Aus. but that wasn't approved by HO.. I recall sitting in it and it wasn't that roomy. Depends what you are used to. Nev

[onetrack]

I think it still has the original piston engines, Nev, even though the nacelles look bulky enough to house a turbine. These Aero Commanders were ferried to Australia by the North Atlantic route, 18,500 miles and 110 hours flying time!

They cost £50,000 each ($100,000) in 1959, a serious amount of money in the days when a new Holden sedan cost £1000!

 

There's 4 fine looking, very impressive military appearance Captains, amongst the ferry pilots there, Nev - are you one of them? 

 

http://www.airwaysmuseum.com/Aero Commander 560 delivery press release.htm

[facthunter]

The props are feathered and I think I can see a tailpipe on the starboard motor. From memory that is the colour they were back then.  No I don't even recall any of them. Airways surveying was calibrating precision approach systems. They later used Fokker Jets.. Commanders had a bit of an  issue with wing spars.  Nev

[RFguy]

There is  a guy that flys into Cowra everynow and again in his Tecnam TWIN.  By his accounts, it's a bit underpowered. Needs a pair of 915s not 912s

[Student Pilot]

Obvious they are the original pistons, I think they might have had geared props? The augmenter tubes were very noisy.