RANS S21 + 915iS (RAAUS?) Legislative requirements + safe ordering practises.

[gliding-chris-au]

Hi Aussie Aviators, 

                               Long time lurker, first time poster. I am a RAA pilot and have a some questions for those experienced in ordering/building aircraft from overseas, my questions are more related to legislation, requirements and ordering practises. I do understand Group G is not quite there yet but I'm keen on yours thoughts about whether this build does/would fit under RAAUS requirements and whether you would bank your deposit on it coming to fruition.

 

1. Would/will a RAN S21 + 915iS kit build be possible to register under RAAUS Group G? Stall is <45 (with Flaps) -> MTOW is >760kg thus I thought it will be fine to be eventually registered e.g 29-XXXX rego 760 MTOW. 

 

2. What are the legislative requirements before undertaking/ordering a kit? i.e What are the general steps to ensure I am doing everything by the book (RAAUS? CASA?) For example Do I have to register the intension to build or seek approval prior to ordering with RAAUS or CASA... Which if it were today would need to be 600 MTOW e.g Rans S21 + 912/915 (600 MTOW). I'm 6'3" and 102kg...  

 

3. Given the RANS kit current queue and wait time would it be wise or perhaps risky to order at least the airframe (Firewall back)? I suppose this really depends on the answers to Question 1 & 2 and whether you can (easily) change your planned MTOW during build also whether s21+915 does indeed fit under RAA criteria.

 

4. Assuming I clearly understand all of the above and are ready to purchase the kit, how do other recommend the following tasks be done;

a. Make the transaction (most effective/safest way to pay USD)? I bank with CBA. 

b. Insure both the transaction and the order itself (Legal Contract?)

c. Safest most reliable way to insure the delivery/shipping?

 

Any other thoughts or comments or learnings from those with experience would be greatly appreciated. 

 

I apologise if these things are being rehashed somewhat, I've done some searching but couldnt find the exact answers I've been looking for.

 

Thanks in advance for your time.  

 

Kind Regards,

Chris. (RAA Pilot) 

Edited June 13, 2022 by gliding-chris-au

[Kyle Communications]

Hi Chris

 

You will need to get onto Randy as the 2 weight limits for the S-21 were horsepower limited

My S-21 is Rotax powered although it does have a big bore kit but no appreciated difference in engine weight. I am limited to 1600 lb (727 kg) MTOW with the Rotax 912ULS or 914. So this fits in the Group G category. The Titan powered versions are 1800lb which is 820kg so will not be allowed in Group G

 

The 915 IS is a different kettle of fish..it is a lot heavier than the 912ULS also of course more horsepower so Randy will nominate the MTOW as the manufacturer and you are stuck with what he says it will be and that will determine whether you can put it in Group G

 

Mark

 

[Kyle Communications]

As far as transactions go try to use a Forex company like Tasman FX   I use them all the time. They give great rates and also they are very very good finding banks. The bank RANS uses in the USA is a little non descript one with about 4 branches  so can be difficult to get transfers done to. Use a Forex company its easier.

 

A US$5000 deposit is required until the balance is due for delivery so thats eaisly managed....be very aware of freight costs and how you are going to get it in..best way is to try to get others in the container with you preferablky from RANS..ask Michelle if she knows of any then consolidate the shipment....mine I did like that and organised it through my freight company we use at work and it was very seamless.   Rob Fox has just done for for another group of RANS customers..landed a couple of months ago now and I tacked on a nosewheel conversion kit for my TD one that I got in. Insureand on TD now is getting crazy so I opted to get the nosewheel kit in so I can pick and choose my bank balance for insurance

 

 

 

 

[gliding-chris-au]

49 minutes ago, Kyle Communications said:

The 915 IS is a different kettle of fish..it is a lot heavier than the 912ULS also of course more horsepower so Randy will nominate the MTOW as the manufacturer and you are stuck with what he says it will be and that will determine whether you can put it in Group G

 

Thanks Mark,

                      I think Randy has said 915iS is 820kg which I thought was the overall (VH) maximum limitation. Perhaps I have misunderstood how MTOW limitations work. I thought the Manuacturer sets the MTOW and the australian RAAUS legislation is <45 stall and the maximum MTOW (regardless of maufacturer) is 600kg. Which is why (i thought) RAA registered aircraft were limited to 600 dispite the manufacturer supporting heavier weights. 

 

For example:

Jab J230 (RAA = 600kg / VH = 760kg)

Sling 2 (RAA = 600 / VH = 700kg) 

 

thus my thinking was 

~S21 (RAA = 600 / VH 820) currently -> but when Group G comes in (RAA+G = 760kg / VH = 820kg)

 

I thought the way this worked was that as long as the stall speed is at or below 45kts then the MTOW was limited at the limitation for RAA (currently 600, soon 760). So for example although RANS say MTOW 820kg (915iS) {See attachment}, it could be registered as RAA at MTOW <760kg because stall is still <45kts at 820kg, surely be still less than 45kts at 760kg?

 

From what you are saying, RANS would need to provide a different/seperate certificate/certification as proof the kit (S21+915) could support MTOW 760kg @ <45 knots stall to allow this build to happen? Even though it stalls at <45kts at 820kg already? Doesn't seem logical as to why it needs another certification. Unless it stalls at more than 45 kts once the MTOW is >600kg. 

 

Kind Regards,

Chris.

 

Edited June 13, 2022 by gliding-chris-au

[Kyle Communications]

Ok dont get confused with VH rego and Experimental VH rego etc.

 

RAA normal is 600kg Max as the MTOW as by the manufacturer. Those older jabs were allowed to fly in the 600kg even though the MTOW was higher....that now is no longer allowed except for those grandfathered ones.

 

The rules now are 600kg for RAA MTOW

760kg Group G MTOW..the 45kt stall speed is now revoked

anything else is either VH Experimental or VH if factory built S-21

 

If the spec sheet says the 915 IS is 1800 lb MTOW it can NOT go into Group G as the max weight is 820kg it can only be VH Experimental if a kit or VH normal if factory built

 

This is why I went for the 912ULS Rotax..but mine has a big bore so its basically a 914 in HP

If you wanted to and I cant see why it would not be legal as the base is a 912 ULS engine is get a Edge perfomance engine with the 140hp or more and fit that...the manufacturer spec says 912 Rotax...so whatever HP you can get from that will/should be allowed. Randy told me the reason was the 100 HP on the std 912ULS limited the MTOW with climb performance etc. If you happen to ue that engine and bolt on a bit more HP then I cant see any reason why you cant put it in group G...I am looking at doing a turbo for my big bore 912 so who knows.

 

But the factory states the 915 IS is 1800 lb  so will not be allowed Group G

Mark

 

 

 

[gliding-chris-au]

Thanks Mark, Makes sense. Couple of quick questions about your build if you have time.

 

Do you have an estimated idea of the empty weight of your build? 

What sort of comfortable cruise speed are you predicting/striving for with your build?

 

Thanks again for your responses. Looking forward to seeing your build take shape.

 

Kind Regards,

Chris. 

[sfGnome]

Mark, are you talking about factory and amateur built, or only factory? The Sling agent told me that as a home-built, it will be able to be registered as group G despite being limited to 600kg for the factory built (LSA) versions. 

[Kyle Communications]

sfGnome

 

The factor for Group G is what the manufacturer states for the MTOW for that model.

The RANS S-21 is a good example for this  the 912ULS version is 1600 lb   727kg MTOW which fits perfectly

The Titan /Rotax 915 IS powered is 1800 lb  820kg  MTOW is NOT allowed to be in group G even though its the same airframe

 

Both aircraft are exactly the same except for the engine used

Only the Rotax 912 ULS version can be in Group G

 

So if your Sling is under a MTOW of 760kg whether it is a factory built or a amateur /experimental build then it can go in Group G...but if the manufacturer says the MTOW is even 1 more kg over that 760 kg it will not be allowed into Group G. Even if it is a kit it is the MTOW speced for that kit...if you built that kit for VH Experimental then you can actually nominate your MTOW but that is not available for Group G

 

Chris

 

Most 912ULS powered S-21 come out between 380 to 400kg empty weight the heavier end is the nose wheel version

With my big bore engine and the Eprop I am expecting a cruise at about 105 kts

I have the Titan header tank with my kit and with the main tanks I can get on board 185 litres of fuel so it will have good endurance

I flew the only S-21 while in the USA to see it back in 2018 and 2 up with half fuel it was fine...no speed demon but certainly very good so a bit more HP and it would be a dream. We were doing 100mph most of the time easily there was a whirlwind prop on the aircraft. I expect the Eprop to be a lot better. The last day was quite windy about 20kts and it handled the wind really well..surprisingly well certainly far better than my savannah

 

 

Here is a video of me and the Mrs in that aircraft. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[gliding-chris-au]

Thanks Mark,

                       You certainly have given me a lot to think about and thanks for sharing your video (subscribed), incidentally I did the exact same thing with my wife, we are lucky to know a very experienced local female pilot who took my wife up for a tour of our local valleys (Alpine Region Victoria) in her beautiful bright yellow foxbat, my wife loved it, as such I got the green light to get my license and a Foxbat/Vixen prior to the war. Happy Wife, Happy (flying) life 😉 

 

Your aircraft sounds fantastic and well suited to your needs. Although for me personally that extra HP of the 915 would be appreciately for my use cases, its certainly not massive difference with the 912. 

On 13/06/2022 at 10:59 AM, Kyle Communications said:

You will need to get onto Randy as the 2 weight limits for the S-21 were horsepower limited

I assume you are meaning the below LSA 600kg MTOW with the 915 and 340 are horsepower limited? 

 

I'm doing more research about "type certification" and whether perhaps the S21+915 combo will/would be possible with a letter from Rans gvien the LSA STOL charactoristics/performance of this aircraft. I am yet to read anything from a CASR/RAA regulatory point of view that would rule it out.... but i'm still reading.... and the Group G definitions are still being written as we speak.

 

I couldn't find the type certificate for the S21, only the FAA kit build approval and builder assist approval (no mention of specific engines). As i said still reading... 😉 

 

Thanks again for all your responses.

 

Cheers,

Chris.

 

[Kyle Communications]

From what i know and found out it is what the manufacturer states...LSA is factory built and no mods whatso ever can be done.

if you build it then of course it is different. The Group G goes on what the manufacturer says the MTOW is for that aircraft model hence the other MTOW weights on that list.

The upshot is if you have a 912 in it and its kit built it will fit in Group G..if you buy a LSA it is only ever 600kg max 1320 lbs)

If you have a 915 IS or a Titan etc in it is can not be in Group G

 

 

 

[gliding-chris-au]

Thanks Mark, I've been recommended to convert to a RPL + NAV/XC etc sports license which I'm told solves any doubt on the MTOW, I'm told its the same medical standards as RAAUS and can VH register experimental at the 820 weight limit. Little bit of mucking around, but my instructor says the conversion wont be too long/expensive for me. I'm in my early 40's. Certainly learning lots.

 

Thanks again for your responses, very much valued and appreciated. Looking forward to seeing your build take shape. 

 

Kind Regards,

Chris.

[Thruster88]

The medical standard that RAAus currently have is not available to Australian RPL or PPL CASA license holders at this time. CASA Consultation on this area has just closed, evidence supports CASA license holders in private ops having the same standard.  

[gliding-chris-au]

Thanks Thruster,

                             I see your point, I think essentially we are both right (Screenshots below). You dont need a Class 1,2,3 Medical for an RPL* under certain conditions (1 passenger, 1500kg MTOW, No acrobatics, Day VFR, 10,000 ceiling). You do however require an "RAMPC" which is very basic general health checkup consisting of basic questions and a few basic tests signed off by you and your local GP (Any GP). The GP tests are extremely basic things, Blood Presure, Pulse, joint movements, eye test, hearing test etc. The requirements are essentially the same as a general checkup.   https://www.casa.gov.au/recreational-aviation-medical-practitioners-certificate-rampc-application 

 

There is more to it than I was initially explained because the RAMPC form is required to be submitted every 2 years. I would expect the GP visit to be done in ~10 minute, plus the CASA $50 Admin fee. I've read through the questions/tests and TBH if I was answering "Yes" to any of them I probably wouldnt/shouldn't be flying regardless (RPC/RPL). 

 

The RAMPC (Limited RPL) is more than fine for my flying criteria (experimental, 1 passenger, 1500kg MTOW, No acrobatics, Day VFR, 10,000 ceiling). 

 

https://www.casa.gov.au/licences-and-certificates/aviation-medicals/medical-certificates/classes-medical-certificate#

https://www.casa.gov.au/licences-and-certificates/pilots/pilot-licences/getting-recreational-pilot-licence-rpl

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 17, 2022 by gliding-chris-au

[Mike Gearon]

On 12/6/2022 at 7:51 PM, Kyle Communications said:

This is why I went for the 912ULS Rotax..but mine has a big bore so its basically a 914 in HP

Is this ordered yet? I was on the phone today with these guys. http://zipperbigbore.com/1484-zipper-high-power/
 

My Rans S21 has the UL520 on order. I have another project with 80hp 912 that is going to get a HP upgrade to 120hp for 4.5k USD plus Replacement ignition modules with soft start. Their tech guy Hal is one of the top STOL competitors in USA and many years on engines. 

[Kyle Communications]

My big bore retrofit has been done. Complete engine is sitting in the engine frame. It was a 2000 hr 2015 engine from a training aircraft. I had the gearbox rebuilt as per 1000 hr services the engine has all new bearings, lifters,valves,springs,new sprag clutch etc. The cam lobes have also been ground to ensure that the lifters rotate as they should. This is where Edge has had some failures and also std Rotax engines. The video shows the lifters rotating as the engine is turned over. The big bore kit fitted and then the entire engine has been balanced. Rotax engines are NOT balanced from the factory

 

My big bore kit is from the original designer of the big bore kits. Ronnie Smith from Flymlsa in Mississippi. He used to supply edge and Zipper I believe until they both went off and basically copied it to do their own. I met Ronnie at the Rans open day in 2018. He is a Rotax guru he not only has a full rotax rebuild workshop and new sales he also goes all over the USA and Canada doing the Rotax full engine maintenaince courses. What he doesnt know about Rotax engines is not worth knowing

 

229E5DEC-6700-4389-A1F4-28D239FE52D3.MOV

 

 

 

 

 

[Mike Gearon]

Glad I asked. I was told from one source that Edge sourced from then copied  American work. It’s obviously more complicated than that. Zipper, edge and stol creek are easily found for big bore kits. 
 

https://flysmla.com/ Doesn’t actually mention big bore kits from what I could see. 

[Kyle Communications]

He doesnt have to advertise them...just contact them direct

 

[Mike Gearon]

11 hours ago, Kyle Communications said:

He doesnt have to advertise them...just contact them direct

 

Well, I’ve just had a thorough education. Called Ronnie. Nice guy. He is visiting California running rotax courses. I’ll order when he’s home. 

 

1. Yes, Ronnie was the originator. The others copied. Edge does get their cylinder made at the same place as Ronnie. They start with a different billet. I trust the spec Ronnie runs. Particularly when I now understand Edge will provide my 80hp with a 120hp conversion and they use the same cylinder for 80 or 100hp. Ronnie explained the remaining material is too thin on the 80hp. 
 

2. Pistons. I’ve seen some controversy on skirt cutaway. Ronnie runs his pistons as close as possible to Rotax spec from a known piston maker. He has top ring from a Phoenix supplier that is superior. I was a bit overloaded at this stage to take good notes.

 

Very appreciative of your comments Mark.

 

I’ve just texted Ronnie. He’s confirmed back I can change the 80hp to 100hp. That’s actually plenty. I’m cutting the 49ft motor glider wings down to 31ft… well, I’m having the USA Pipistrel go to guy in New Mexico do it. Just has to rehinge the flaperon end. If this thing just stayed on the ground I’d enjoy tackling it. More careful seeing as it flies.  
 

Tundra tyres and It’ll look like the pic below but not as shiny. 20 year old aircraft. The 36ft wing version with 100hp is am economical 145kn cruise 17:1 glide  I’m cutting down to 31ft to fit in hangar and possibly 13-14:1 glide. Just have to find a pilot willing to find out what the cruise and VNE is going to be. I’m told the wing camber/ dimension tail and boom are identical on the Virus. 165kn VNE 

 

It’ll be my daily commuter. Just has to get in the air and fly over the water. About 8 minutes to save 2 hour car/ ferry/. Ar trips.
 

Some trips 40 minutes north to Wangaratta farm. S21 will be for the more serious flying.