Emergency landing and inversion 13/06/2022

[Thruster88]

6 hours ago, BrendAn said:

Human error. Nothing to do with jabiru

Hopefully all will be spelled out in the RAAus accident and incident report in enough detail that other operators can learn from it. We will wait and see.

 

I have spoken to the tech person about lack of follow up on serious occurrences. They say they cannot compel operators to give details. I don't think keeping quiet or sweeping it under the rug helps anyone. 

 

Here is serious incident that happened 3 months ago. Was it caused by a human factor, a mechanical issue that could be reoccurring or something so rare it can be discounted? I am sure owners and  operators would benefit from some basic details. 

 

 

26/3/2022	Whitemore	TAS	Jabiru	J160C	Jabriu	Gen 4	STATUS: Under review EXTRACT FROM REPORT SUBMISSION: An instructor and student were undertaking ...
STATUS: Under review EXTRACT FROM REPORT SUBMISSION: An instructor and student were undertaking flight training in the Training Area adjacent to the Launceston CTZ. On climb at approx. 3500ft the instructor observed an indication of no oil pressure. The instructor immediately reduced engine revolutions and the engine then stopped. No abnormal sounds or other abnormal indications were present. A successful forced landing was carried out on a disused airstrip at Whitemore.

 

[RFguy]

Brendan said : 

"was it excess though. i have been doing my lessons in a j160 and j230. touchdown at 70 knots and best glide speed for engine out is 65 knots."

 

I think your touchdown speed is out by a country mile. the only way you could be landing at 70 knots in a Jabiru is if you fly it onto the ground and do a 3 pointer (and bounce)

 

There is no way you can generate a flare at 70 knots without ballooning wildly !

 

 

Edited June 17, 2022 by RFguy

[facthunter]

Depending on the downslope you can glide without losing any speed.  Nev

[BrendAn]

1 hour ago, RFguy said:

Brendan said : 

"was it excess though. i have been doing my lessons in a j160 and j230. touchdown at 70 knots and best glide speed for engine out is 65 knots."

 

I think your touchdown speed is out by a country mile. the only way you could be landing at 70 knots in a Jabiru is if you fly it onto the ground and do a 3 pointer (and bounce)

 

There is no way you can generate a flare at 70 knots without ballooning wildly !

 

 

.i am still the passenger. I have only had the controls once on landing but tomorrow I will be doing most of the landings .  The instructor does a great job. He flies it right onto the runway and never balloons it. If you google Jabiru landing speed orange training school comes up and they recommend 65 to 70 knts as well.  You are saying we can't do this and that yet it's done every day.

[Blueadventures]

10 minutes ago, BrendAn said:

.i am still the passenger. I have only had the controls once on landing but tomorrow I will be doing most of the landings .  The instructor does a great job. He flies it right onto the runway and never balloons it. If you google Jabiru landing speed orange training school comes up and they recommend 65 to 70 knts as well.  You are saying we can't do this and that yet it's done every day.

Pilot notes 160 states 70 kts for precautionary check then when established on final 60 kts with full flap. I’d be at these numbers for landing. I’m not an instructor and comment meant so more checking can be made with appropriate type instructors.  

 

 

Edited June 17, 2022 by Blueadventures

[facthunter]

The empty weight is usually close to half of the AUW which means there can be a considerable variation of actual stall speed. Nose heavy makes this worse so there's NO actual fixed stall speed for all conditions  for a particular plane. till you find it by experience or testing. The one quoted is for most forward Cof G. Where appropriate, you'll also carry some for things like Gusts and not using full Flaps.. IF a quick positive flare JUST catches it you are getting too slow. If it touches down without much raising of the nose you could have been slower. It pays to keep the weight off the nosewheel on a jabiru even on take-off. Nev

[turboplanner]

1 hour ago, BrendAn said:

.i am still the passenger. I have only had the controls once on landing but tomorrow I will be doing most of the landings .  The instructor does a great job. He flies it right onto the runway and never balloons it. If you google Jabiru landing speed orange training school comes up and they recommend 65 to 70 knts as well.  You are saying we can't do this and that yet it's done every day.

When you have taken the controls and started to make your own landings you will know what we mean.

The Jabiru landing speed you've googled could be for any model, and their landing speeds vary. What you've quoted and recommended sounds more like a J160 speed. You would have problems in the J170 at those speeds.

What we all need to do is go to the aircraft, look in the POH and use the performance data from THAT POH for THAT Aircraft. Flying schools will usually have done that for you, but googling generic material can get you into real trouble.

 

[Thruster88]

RAAus aircraft 45knot or less stall in landing configuration. So approach speed would be 45 x 1.3 = 60 knots. Anyone forcing a jabiru onto the runway at 70 should google "aircraft wheelbarrow". Good way to have a runway excursion.  

[RFguy]

@BrendAn.

Please go and read the POH for THAT airplane from front to rear. There are particular chapters like NORMAL proceedures and EMERGENCY proceedures are are must reads.

 

Each airplane has its own POH that is written to the serial number of the aircraft.

While most aircraft in a series are similar, there will be variations. 

 

A variation might be that the flaps only extend 20 deg, not 30, so the stall speed is different .... or does it have 140 litre on 100 litre fuel tanks ?

 

This is something all pilots must do before flying different aircraft (any aircraft, really, )  even if it is a model that you are familiar with.

 

 

 

Edited June 18, 2022 by RFguy

[bull]

1 minute ago, RFguy said:

@BrendAn.

Please go and read the POH for THAT airplane from front to rear. There are particular chapters like NORMAL proceedures and EMERGENCY proceedures are are must reads.

 

Each airplane has its own POH that is written to the serial number of the aircraft.

While most aircraft in a series are similar, there will be variations.  A variation might be that the flaps only extend 20 deg, not 30, so the stall speed is different ....

 

This is something all pilots must do before flying different aircraft (any aircraft, really, )  even if it is a model that you are familiar with.

 

 

 

But it is a bin chicken,,,,,they love paddocks..

 

[RFguy]

Rolling on floor laughing . Now that is genuinely funny and quite clever.

[facthunter]

I was around when the Tricycle gear became almost universal and we Tailwheel types continued to hold off till the stall warning just activated on Cessna's etc Sometime later a surge of Landing mishaps appeared with this "Wheelbarrowing Thing" particularly at aerodromes with LOOoong runways. A SAFER feature became a source of risk. Learn to approach and be over the threshold at a precise speed FOR the conditions. Anything less is not good enough.. No one watches the ASI  all through the landing though. You are busy looking outside at some point. Nothing changes fast if the attitude, configuration or power is not changed.. Nev

[BrendAn]

2 hours ago, turboplanner said:

When you have taken the controls and started to make your own landings you will know what we mean.

The Jabiru landing speed you've googled could be for any model, and their landing speeds vary. What you've quoted and recommended sounds more like a J160 speed. You would have problems in the J170 at those speeds.

What we all need to do is go to the aircraft, look in the POH and use the performance data from THAT POH for THAT Aircraft. Flying schools will usually have done that for you, but googling generic material can get you into real trouble.

 

J160and j230 which is the same wing as a 170 anyway.

[RFguy]

No it is not. A J160 wing is NOT a J230 wing. A J230 wing is wider by a considerable amount, and the aerofoil is slightly different, also.  and the MTOW is different. and they have very different go-around character , etc . they are very different . 

Go and read the POH !

 

Edited June 18, 2022 by RFguy

[BrendAn]

3 hours ago, Blueadventures said:

Pilot notes 160 states 70 kts for precautionary check then when established on final 60 kts with full flap. I’d be at these numbers for landing. I’m not an instructor and comment meant so more checking can be made with appropriate type instructors.  

 

 

Thanks. I will ask more questions tomorrow. 

[BrendAn]

7 minutes ago, RFguy said:

No it is not. A J160 wing is NOT a J230 wing. A J230 wing is wider by a considerable amount, and the aerofoil is slightly different, also.  and the MTOW is different. and they have very different go-around character , etc . they are very different . 

Go and read the POH !

 

Read my bloody comment properly. The 230 and 170 share the same wing. Not the 160. I will read the Poh . I do have it. Why can't we discuss anything here without turning into a shit fight. There is no need for your aggression.

[BrendAn]

Am I confusing approach speed with touchdown speed . Everyone saying it's too fast . Maybe it's only doing 60 when the wheels hit the ground.

Edited June 18, 2022 by BrendAn

[RFguy]

sorry. Look, you have come up with a number of assertions such as you'll be landing at 70 knots in a Jabiru,  which is just plain incorrect .

 

It's important that where something is stated as a fact and it is wrong in this forum, and potentially hazardous, then other members must make corrections to ensure the casual reader does not get propagated the wrong information.

Listen to what Facthunter and Turboplanner have to say.

 

We're all saying read the POH for that aircraft and memorize it   Maybe take a copy of the shortform info and checklist in the aircraft if there is one.  Flying contrary to the POH is ill advised...

 

anyway- moving forward - I am thinking you are mixing up the following : 

 

STABILIZED APPROACH SPEED

OVER THE FENCE SPEED (conditions dependent) 

 

As for landing speed :

What airspeed you take into the flare (conditions dependent)   is very much dependent on power settings, descent rate,, airplane type etc. That is where the art and experience is.

 

As Turbs says, as you start to do your own landings, you will understand what we're saying.

FactHunter made a very simple and good remark : ". IF a quick positive flare JUST catches it you are getting too slow. If it touches down without much raising of the nose you could have been slower."

 

 

 

Edited June 18, 2022 by RFguy

[BrendAn]

35 minutes ago, RFguy said:

sorry. Look, you have come up with a number of assertions such as you'll be landing at 70 knots in a Jabiru,  which is just plain incorrect .

 

It's important that where something is stated as a fact and it is wrong in this forum, and potentially hazardous, then other members must make corrections to ensure the casual reader does not get propagated the wrong information.

Listen to what Facthunter and Turboplanner have to say.

 

We're all saying read the POH for that aircraft and memorize it   Maybe take a copy of the shortform info and checklist in the aircraft if there is one.  Flying contrary to the POH is ill advised...

 

anyway- moving forward - I am thinking you are mixing up the following : 

 

STABILIZED APPROACH SPEED

OVER THE FENCE SPEED (conditions dependent) 

 

As for landing speed :

What airspeed you take into the flare (conditions dependent)   is very much dependent on power settings, descent rate,, airplane type etc. That is where the art and experience is.

 

As Turbs says, as you start to do your own landings, you will understand what we're saying.

FactHunter made a very simple and good remark : ". IF a quick positive flare JUST catches it you are getting too slow. If it touches down without much raising of the nose you could have been slower."

 

 

 

Thanks Rf. Sorry for the outburst. I  do take in what you all say. There is so much too learn. Wish I had started 30 yrs ago.

[facthunter]

There DOES seem a lot at first. EVERYBODY faces that. I built lots of models before going to the real  thing and that must have helped. I recall looking down at the Aerodrome and thinking "How the hell would I get this thing to end up there?". It's a whole set of new skills and a different environment.. Experience will help you have a more refined FEEL for the Plane. Cast your mind back to Straight & Level. IF that sequence was covered properly there's quite a lot in it. Speed changes what a plane can do AND some speeds are limiting. Not enough speed and the wing can't do the job of stopping you falling .. We apply extra margins for safety where experience has told us we should. In turns, Turbulence, when pulling out of a dive etc.

[facthunter]

Sometimes in turbulence you should slow up and limit manouvering speed. If you are going fast you can impose more loads on the structure..  Flap and gear extend speeds are limiting.  Nev

[RFguy]

BrendAn, yep at the beginning the first 0-12 hours can feel like complete task overload. and usually the instructor, if you are flying regularly will keep loading you up with new things, dont worry if you fail to grasp stuff, sometimes your instructor will load you up purely to see how you respond in different situations (IE and not necessary required to, but the instructor is just evaluating just how much you can do naturally/instincively) .

 

Nev, Turbs, -  I think that the complexity of the flare is an amazing combination of variables and control inputs. 

It takes both experience AND currency to land well .

 

My advice is fly by watching and feeling how the plane plane responds to control inputs., not on rote. that's I think a key to good landings.  pulling the flare on especially when there is too much airspeed requires a very delicate  approach. But. listen to your instructor. He-she is the one who will come to know you, as you will come to know them. 

[Mike Gearon]

7 hours ago, RFguy said:

BrendAn, yep at the beginning the first 0-12 hours can feel like complete task overload. and usually the instructor, if you are flying regularly will keep loading you up with new things,

Even later same can happen..3 years in and over 300 hours now…. I’ve just moved from the unbearable heat of Phoenix to Rapid City South Dakota IFR training. Long travel day to Rapid then an hour under the hood with a new instructor and worn out….Hood off (Sim IFR to VFR) and turned base and final and had everything perfect then…. I wanted the Piper Warrior held off and we didn’t. We gently banged into the runway. I knew instantly what had happened. I can still picture the skid marks where we touched down. I was all the way back to where you’ll be. We all get fixated on the spot we aim for. I was 100% looking at the touchdown point and didn’t know how high we were. We learn to get our eyes up as the instructor will tell you. Look down the runway.  
 

I’m bringing in a little mid final now. Gear fixed/ Gear down/(gear up amphibious) wind direction check and eyes up after round out. 

9 hours ago, facthunter said:

There DOES seem a lot at first. EVERYBODY faces that. I built lots of models before going to the real  thing and that must have helped. I recall looking down at the Aerodrome and thinking "How the hell would I get this thing to end up there?". 

That’s pretty cool you remember that.
 

I had no interest in returning to the runway area and wanted to stay up in the circuit. Seemed much safer and peaceful up high. Hope your flying goes well. I nearly gave up a few times. I had an awful instructor. Only awful because I was his first ever student and he had no clue. Give the young guys a go and move to older if any problems is my suggestion. I have a 27 year old for IFR. We are same hours and experience. He’s a pleasure to fly with because what I’m learning and the mistakes I’m making are fresh to him.

Edited June 18, 2022 by Mike Gearon

[APenNameAndThatA]

I used to fly for an hour and sleep for much of the rest of the day. 

[facthunter]

An hour of high load training is getting too long. Your performance will start to drop off.

  As for landing, every one is different or potentially different. You must react to what the plane is doing. A landing can't be a one, two, three thing. IF you flare too fast, the plane will balloon but if you are slow (airspeed) you must react quickly or you will do a hard landing.. I'd say looking at your landing spot would be a disaster. Same as looking at a kerb/ fence close up will make you hit it. Ground effect can help reduce R o D or extend the float, if you are carrying speed. Nev