RA-Aus Don't Know How to Do "Occurrence Management

[Blueadventures]

10 minutes ago, RossK said:

You would hope so.

Lilydale and Coldstream are only 5km apart.

Lilydale operate at std 1000ft AGL = 1250 AMSL with all circuits to the west

Coldstream operate at 1250ft AGL = 1500ft AMSL with all circuits to the east.

Both operate on the same CTAF.

 

KIngaroy have gilders do right hand circuits and powered aircraft left hand.  Good for safe operations considering the in circuit air speeds.

[facthunter]

Confusion is what you must avoid.  It just adds to workload. Same as when some plane reports a close in position erroneously. Nev

[Yenn]

Airmanship has gone. It is now human resources or some such silly name and not understood. As far as Airservices are concerned they don't really seem to care about making it safer, they just want to be in control.

Here at Rodds Bay we used to have to talk on area frequency, Then they changed the rules and we got re named Iveragh. How do you pronounce that? We are 15 miles from Gladstone on their own frequency and their traffic goes over us at 500' or maybe less. Coming in from the North or West we are in Gladstone area and have to be on 118.8, then change to CTAF 126.7, while those coming in from the South or West are on area frequency 119.55 and will not hear the others approaching, until they change to CTAF at less than 5 miles.

Good to see Jackc is with CDFG , plenty of experience there to call on.

[kgwilson]

I started my RAA conversion in a Skyfox Gazelle at Caloundra in 2009 & the radio traffic from Caboolture on a Saturday morning was crazy. Gliders, RA, GA, Helis & students of all persuasions. Luckily I didn't have to make many calls as Caloundra was fairly quiet. If it is busier now it must be hard to keep track of what is going on.

 

I always remember one frustrated pilots comment after some pilot hogged the airwaves by almost reciting his life history when he said very quickly, clearly and in an agitated voice something like "Keep to the point, this frequency is far too busy for idle chit chat". I didn't hear the perpetrator at all after that.

[Kyle Communications]

Radio is a big problem at Ycab for all the reasons mentioned before. Redcliffe is on a different freq and I reckon at least half of the aircraft call on the redcliffe freq when they are transiting our airspace. CASA flatly refused the freq change. The issue is pilots NOT reading the Ops manual and letting it sink in. If Caloundra were on their own frequency that would make 3 different radio frequencies within maybe 35 nm. Thats fine provided everyone sticks to the 10nm radius and actually changes to the frequency they are supposed to be on but it seems 50% of the pilots cant seem to do that and you play kamakazi regularly especially around Toorbul and Donny brook as both Caloundra and Redcliffe aircraft use that as a transit all the time. It all goes to education but the issue I see is most of the offenders dont seem to care for abiding by strict ops rules in others airspace or even their own. As I said Airmanship has gone down the toilet.

 

APen

How about you go back and read what I said. ...Since I have been on the committe since Dec 2019 (sorry it seemed longer due to all the other reports and jobs we do on the committee with the 4hr meeting every month)  There has NOT been one complaint about tug operations. I have not missed one committee meeting so thats about 30 meetings I have attended. Plenty of other reports of near misses and stupidity and complaints by other pilots though in that time plus noise complaints.  People may not realise it but Ycab has around 200 plus landings and takeoffs a day and I can confirm those numbers as I record every single radio transmission at the airfield as a log

 

[APenNameAndThatA]

12 minutes ago, Kyle Communications said:

Radio is a big problem at Ycab for all the reasons mentioned before. Redcliffe is on a different freq and I reckon at least half of the aircraft call on the redcliffe freq when they are transiting our airspace. CASA flatly refused the freq change. The issue is pilots NOT reading the Ops manual and letting it sink in. If Caloundra were on their own frequency that would make 3 different radio frequencies within maybe 35 nm. Thats fine provided everyone sticks to the 10nm radius and actually changes to the frequency they are supposed to be on but it seems 50% of the pilots cant seem to do that and you play kamakazi regularly especially around Toorbul and Donny brook as both Caloundra and Redcliffe aircraft use that as a transit all the time. It all goes to education but the issue I see is most of the offenders dont seem to care for abiding by strict ops rules in others airspace or even their own. As I said Airmanship has gone down the toilet.

 

APen

How about you go back and read what I said. ...Since I have been on the committe since Dec 2019 (sorry it seemed longer due to all the other reports and jobs we do on the committee with the 4hr meeting every month)  There has NOT been one complaint about tug operations. I have not missed one committee meeting so thats about 30 meetings I have attended. Plenty of other reports of near misses and stupidity and complaints by other pilots though in that time plus noise complaints.  People may not realise it but Ycab has around 200 plus landings and takeoffs a day and I can confirm those numbers as I record every single radio transmission at the airfield as a log

 

Sorry, I did misread what you wrote. Would you be able to answer my question? 

[Kyle Communications]

Since I have been on the committee I have never seen any reports about tug ops..before that I can not comment.

As far as the tug aircraft being next to you well that goes to how you fly. The tug ops are very standard and well known. They use the far left outside the runway area on the grass next to the trees. The tugs do a very short circuit and always have. Many times I have come in with the tug landing off to my left. You obviously didnt hear the tug radio calls and adjust your circuit or approach accordingly. I would put this down to your inexperience. The tug pilots at Ycab have much more experience than you or me in circuits and landings. Its up to you to maintain your own clearances by situational awareness by your eyes and the radio calls. I have no doubt he would have called before you and knowing how they operate then it would be up to you to maintain your own clearance that makes you comfortable. Thats called airmanship.

 

This is my opinion and in no way reflects the Ycab committee opinions

 

 

[APenNameAndThatA]

11 minutes ago, Kyle Communications said:

Since I have been on the committee I have never seen any reports about tug ops..before that I can not comment.

As far as the tug aircraft being next to you well that goes to how you fly. The tug ops are very standard and well known. They use the far left outside the runway area on the grass next to the trees. The tugs do a very short circuit and always have. Many times I have come in with the tug landing off to my left. You obviously didnt hear the tug radio calls and adjust your circuit or approach accordingly. I would put this down to your inexperience. The tug pilots at Ycab have much more experience than you or me in circuits and landings. Its up to you to maintain your own clearances by situational awareness by your eyes and the radio calls. I have no doubt he would have called before you and knowing how they operate then it would be up to you to maintain your own clearance that makes you comfortable. Thats called airmanship.

 

This is my opinion and in no way reflects the Ycab committee opinions

 

 

Are you suggesting that I should have adjusted my circuit, when I was already in the circuit, for a tug that was joining the circuit? 

Edited October 10, 2022 by APenNameAndThatA

[Kyle Communications]

Airmanship

 

 

[APenNameAndThatA]

10 minutes ago, Kyle Communications said:

Airmanship

 

 

Can you be more specific? 

[kiwiaviator]

This sort of incident is a serious near miss. This one in 2019 at my home airfield resulted in two deaths and shook our small community to the core  https://www.taic.org.nz/inquiry/ao-2019-006 

It is still subject to court action so I won't comment further except to say we must take these near misses very seriously and learn from them.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

9 hours ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

Can you be more specific? 

Its like when you are driving..maybe its a older generation thing..you treat everyone else on the road like an idiot. Car driving is only 2 dimensional so you really are driving with your eyes and you drive to what you see. Flying of course is 3 dimensional but you have the advantage of a additional sensor...hearing.

So you take those inputs and use them to create a mental picture of what is around you. You then take any action required whether you are in the circuit of not to take any evasion action necessary to keep yourself safe whether you think you have right of way or not. If someone wants to cut in front of you or not. Right of way in the circuit is about 10% of what take into consideration. 90% is keeping you and everyone else safe because that 3rd dimension is the bit that will kill you every time. I dont care who it is or what it is my priority is to make sure I can come back home to my loved ones. So my spidey senses are at max when I fly but my job is to keep me and pax and anyone else safe no matter what the situation is...that is airmanship

 

[turboplanner]

41 minutes ago, Kyle Communications said:

Its like when you are driving..maybe its a older generation thing..you treat everyone else on the road like an idiot. Car driving is only 2 dimensional so you really are driving with your eyes and you drive to what you see. Flying of course is 3 dimensional but you have the advantage of a additional sensor...hearing.

So you take those inputs and use them to create a mental picture of what is around you. You then take any action required whether you are in the circuit of not to take any evasion action necessary to keep yourself safe whether you think you have right of way or not. If someone wants to cut in front of you or not. Right of way in the circuit is about 10% of what take into consideration. 90% is keeping you and everyone else safe because that 3rd dimension is the bit that will kill you every time. I dont care who it is or what it is my priority is to make sure I can come back home to my loved ones. So my spidey senses are at max when I fly but my job is to keep me and pax and anyone else safe no matter what the situation is...that is airmanship

 

Well what Apen described twice now was an AIRPROX Incident and should have been reported. If people keep covering things up of course you won’t hear about it, but you’ve already identified issues yourself. This situation is one of the hardest to fix because it requires a cultural change.

[jackc]

3 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

Well what Apen described twice now was an AIRPROX Incident and should have been reported. If people keep covering things up of course you won’t hear about it, but you’ve already identified issues yourself. This situation is one of the hardest to fix because it requires a cultural change.

It’s generally recognised that many human beings don’t like to admit they screwed up.  Is it better to dob people in or, offer to educate them? If there is not regular safety seminars and simple refresher courses, about the various Aviation requirements, then we have all failed…… 

Forward thinking clubs need to do this sort of thing, more often.  Our CDFG club does 🙂 

[APenNameAndThatA]

1 hour ago, turboplanner said:

Well what Apen described twice now was an AIRPROX Incident and should have been reported. If people keep covering things up of course you won’t hear about it, but you’ve already identified issues yourself. This situation is one of the hardest to fix because it requires a cultural change.

It was reported. 

[jackc]

1 minute ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

It was reported. 

What was the outcome?

[Kyle Communications]

All I can tell you is the current committee that basically was elected back in 2019 is very different to the one that was there for about 10 years before. We take reports very seriously and have a sub committee called FSAG that look into every single report we get and investigate it and report back. We take this very seriously.

 

[turboplanner]

45 minutes ago, jackc said:

It’s generally recognised that many human beings don’t like to admit they screwed up.  Is it better to dob people in or, offer to educate them? If there is not regular safety seminars and simple refresher courses, about the various Aviation requirements, then we have all failed…… 

Forward thinking clubs need to do this sort of thing, more often.  Our CDFG club does 🙂 

A Pilot has a legal obligation to report a serious incident, and some don't and wonder why to consequences are so horrific.

At the same time the GA system has the incentive that if you report a trangression first, you will not e punished; this is to incentivate self-teaching, and everyone wins. It's a great system and should be picked up by RAA.

There's very little dobbing in, but also apart from the GA system there also appears to be very little training.

Where what you are referring to can go wrong is that some students will use that in lieu of the deafening silence from their instructor.

For example, from the several times I've asked RAA people about MET training and the lack of answers I think it's safe to say that RAA may be falling short in MET. It's not a long course, but a few people have died simply because they didn't know how to go about their last flight. NAV is another one. No problem with GPS and following the magenta line, but a lot of pilots have problems and report them here simply because they fly to the destination in a straight line, whan NAV would teach them how to get around the issues of terrain or regulation, in some cases gaining time on a leg with favourable wind. Performance and Operations is another deafening silence from RAA, and peple usually obfuscate by saying we don't have to do flight Planning any more, not realising weweren't talking about submitting Flight Plans.  These this are not so good in the club environment because they are module-based, but once there's a flicker when a Club starts teachng anything it's not a big leap to start night school on the modules.

[APenNameAndThatA]

1 hour ago, Kyle Communications said:

Its like when you are driving..maybe its a older generation thing..you treat everyone else on the road like an idiot. Car driving is only 2 dimensional so you really are driving with your eyes and you drive to what you see. Flying of course is 3 dimensional but you have the advantage of a additional sensor...hearing.

So you take those inputs and use them to create a mental picture of what is around you. You then take any action required whether you are in the circuit of not to take any evasion action necessary to keep yourself safe whether you think you have right of way or not. If someone wants to cut in front of you or not. Right of way in the circuit is about 10% of what take into consideration. 90% is keeping you and everyone else safe because that 3rd dimension is the bit that will kill you every time. I dont care who it is or what it is my priority is to make sure I can come back home to my loved ones. So my spidey senses are at max when I fly but my job is to keep me and pax and anyone else safe no matter what the situation is...that is airmanship

 

I'm not buying it. You have suggested that it was my job to stay away from the other aircraft because of airmanship and that he knew where he was because of experience, even though aircraft joining the circuit have right of way over aircraft joining the circuit. That's just nuts. Saying that it was my fault, not his, when I was the one already in the circuit is just nuts. 

 

I think that you know that it's nuts, too, because it took you so long to respond to repeated requests to clarify your position. If I was complaining about a tug in the circuit being too close to me when I was joining the circuit, you would have come straight out and said that the tug had right of way, which would have been the sensible thing to say. Imagine if I was complaining that the tug did not make room for me when I entered the circuit and complained that the tug pilot lacked airmanship and had obviously not heard my radio calls. That would have been laughable. 

 

I hope that doubling down and being reluctant to answer questions that explore your point of view are just things that you do online. It's a pet hate of mine when people do it online, but when it happens in real life it can cause real problems. 

 

 

[turboplanner]

8 minutes ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

It was reported. 

I was referring to the Tug Pilot reporting an Airprox to ATSB.

I think you said you reported it to the Club/RAA; it's a concern that it doesn't seem to have progressed.

 

[turboplanner]

2 minutes ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

I'm not buying it. You have suggested that it was my job to stay away from the other aircraft because of airmanship and that he knew where he was because of experience, even though aircraft joining the circuit have right of way over aircraft joining the circuit. That's just nuts. Saying that it was my fault, not his, when I was the one already in the circuit is just nuts. 

 

I think that you know that it's nuts, too, because it took you so long to respond to repeated requests to clarify your position. If I was complaining about a tug in the circuit being too close to me when I was joining the circuit, you would have come straight out and said that the tug had right of way, which would have been the sensible thing to say. Imagine if I was complaining that the tug did not make room for me when I entered the circuit and complained that the tug pilot lacked airmanship and had obviously not heard my radio calls. That would have been laughable. 

 

I hope that doubling down and being reluctant to answer questions that explore your point of view are just things that you do online. It's a pet hate of mine when people do it online, but when it happens in real life it can cause real problems. 

 

 

In fact what you were subjected to is about the worst kind of airmaship around.

[APenNameAndThatA]

12 minutes ago, jackc said:

What was the outcome?

That was what my original post, that started the thread, was about. I don't know too much else, although I am happy to answer questions. I *assume* that RA-Aus told CASA (or maybe I even reported it to CASA) because there as a CASA airplane involved. RA-Aus finalised the investigation without even speaking to me in person. They just went off my written report. 

[APenNameAndThatA]

3 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

I was referring to the Tug Pilot reporting an Airprox to ATSB.

I think you said you reported it to the Club/RAA; it's a concern that it doesn't seem to have progressed.

 

Okay

[jackc]

6 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

A Pilot has a legal obligation to report a serious incident, and some don't and wonder why to consequences are so horrific.

At the same time the GA system has the incentive that if you report a trangression first, you will not e punished; this is to incentivate self-teaching, and everyone wins. It's a great system and should be picked up by RAA.

There's very little dobbing in, but also apart from the GA system there also appears to be very little training.

Where what you are referring to can go wrong is that some students will use that in lieu of the deafening silence from their instructor.

For example, from the several times I've asked RAA people about MET training and the lack of answers I think it's safe to say that RAA may be falling short in MET. It's not a long course, but a few people have died simply because they didn't know how to go about their last flight. NAV is another one. No problem with GPS and following the magenta line, but a lot of pilots have problems and report them here simply because they fly to the destination in a straight line, whan NAV would teach them how to get around the issues of terrain or regulation, in some cases gaining time on a leg with favourable wind. Performance and Operations is another deafening silence from RAA, and peple usually obfuscate by saying we don't have to do flight Planning any more, not realising weweren't talking about submitting Flight Plans.  These this are not so good in the club environment because they are module-based, but once there's a flicker when a Club starts teachng anything it's not a big leap to start night school on the modules.

Turbs, you just identified a serious short  coming of RAaus to address the MET training.  A very important part of flying.  So maybe RAaus need to be pressured on this?  Flight planning was my last club training day, I felt it was worthwhile and so did the other attendees.  I am always hungry to learn, it’s been part of my whole life.

[turboplanner]

5 minutes ago, jackc said:

Turbs, you just identified a serious short  coming of RAaus to address the MET training.  A very important part of flying.  So maybe RAaus need to be pressured on this?  Flight planning was my last club training day, I felt it was worthwhile and so did the other attendees.  I am always hungry to learn, it’s been part of my whole life.

In the flight planning did they touch on Performance and Operations or just the pre-flight things?