RA-Aus Don't Know How to Do "Occurrence Management

[APenNameAndThatA]

10 hours ago, jackc said:

But forcing right of way can be disastrous on the road and in the sky and in this case no one crashed, just write it down to experience?

Okay. Next time you are on downwind, and I join downwind next to you, and wind up 30 m away, the convo will go like this. 

 

You, "That was a near miss and your fault, because I had right of way."

Me, "That was pretty much your fault, due to your inexperience, I could see you the whole time." 

You, "Why."

Me, "Airmanship, and when planes collide, both pilots die." 

You, "Okay, I guess you're right. You should run an aerodrome." 

[APenNameAndThatA]

1 hour ago, Kyle Communications said:

Your such a expert pilot then that your never wrong and you do everything perfectly correct after what.... less than 200 hrs?

The above is what a straw man argument actually looks like, Garfly. 

[jackc]

1 minute ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

Okay. Next time you are on downwind, and I join downwind next to you, and wind up 30 m away, the convo will go like this. 

 

You, "That was a near miss and your fault, because I had right of way."

Me, "That was pretty much your fault, due to your inexperience, I could see you the whole time." 

You, "Why."

Me, "Airmanship, and when planes collide, both pilots die." 

You, "Okay, I guess you're right. You should run an aerodrome." 

Well its simple for me, IF I have any doubt about mine or other people safety in a circuit, I will just call exiting the circuit at say 30 deg and wait away with some orbits and rejoin when ready.  I don’t care how long I am delayed…..it’s not a race to the ground.

[Kyle Communications]

I am always prepared to reliquish my right of way in a circuit..period

 

[facthunter]

You could be DEAD (though) RIGHT. Play safe and sort it later. You miss seeing some people on the road also. If you want to be invisible, ride a Motorbike..  Even at a controlled Major airport a B 707 pulled out and crossed the runway end against the tower's Instruction, requiring Me to do an emergency Go around. You have to be ready for such things.. Nev

[APenNameAndThatA]

1 hour ago, Kyle Communications said:

Apen I hold to my original comment

Your such a expert pilot then that your never wrong and you do everything perfectly correct after what.... less than 200 hrs?

I make mistakes too. I have had several close calls there. Infact on this forum a long way back you may even see my posts somewhere where I actually posted them here. One particular one was with a gyro decending on top of me. I thought I was doing everything correctly and had to take drastic evasion late downwind. Either he didnt make a radio call or I didnt hear him earlier in his joining to the circuit. When I heard a call that made me think he must be near me I looked and couldnt see him until I looked above me and he was decending direct on top of me. I had only about 60 hours of time and I put that down to me not taking enough notice of my situational awareness and that taught me a lot more about flying than anything. When I am joining the circuit I am hyper vigilant coming into the circuit and during the circuit now and always am.

My mistake was I was not being super vigilant at a time of flight that you need to be

 

 

 

You are conflating blame and agency. Suppose Brittney Higgins gets really drunk and gets raped. It is 100% the fault of the rapist. That does not mean that Brittney Higgins would have been safer and would have been wise not to have got drunk. It is wise to advise young women not to get really drunk but incorrect and unwise to day that if they get drunk it is their fault if they get raped. Same with having your car stolen after you leave it unlocked.  

 

To take up your position that it would have been better if I had spotted the plane, it would have been. But the pawnee was faster than me and approaching from above me. You are actually suggesting that pilots on final include above and behind them in their scan. I don't think pilots actually do that. It is quite likely that my view of the aircraft would have been shielded by my wing. To continue the analogy, I think that the situation would be more akin to someone not being drunk at all and being raped. 

 

Which leads me to your comment that the tug pilot probably saw me, a comment that you apparently stand by. If the tug pilot had seen me then he would not have flown up beside me. And, being a low-wing aircraft it would not have been able to see me from above. 

 

When you say that you told yourself that it was your fault when someone cut you off on downwind, that is good, because it means that you mentally take responsibility for things that are not your fault and thereby make your flying safer. The issue of how much one should blame oneself. 

 

Blaming oneself and one's mental health is actually an interesting area. If someone is depressed and/or anxious, they tend to blame themselves for things that are not their fault. By having the person look at situations more objectively and see that things that were not their fault were not their fault, they can become less anxious and depressed, because they feel better about themselves and their ability. Conversely, if someone decides to mentally take responsibility for everything that happens to them, they can feel better because they are less angry at other people and they have a greater sense of agency. The best situation can be where someone both lets themselves off the hook for their mistakes because they are only human, and takes responsibility for everything that happens to them. These ideas are completely contradictory but co-exist perfectly well. You know how sometimes you feel useless and at exactly the same time you know you're not? Same thing. No need to fight either state, they can both just co-exist. 

 

You need to be more sophisticated with your idea of "your fault" and "I make mistakes too". The idea of agency vs. blame might help. If your ideas become more sophisticated, your communication might be too. If you say "that was pretty much your fault because of inexperience" when the idea you are actually trying to convey is "that was not your fault but if you had a better scan, you still could have avoided the situation. But, I think that that give you too much credit, TBH, because you still apparently stand by the statement that the pawnee pilot had probably seen me. That's just bizarre.  

 

Also, there is the issue of the term "airmanship". As someone else here stated, the term causes problems. A similar problem occurs with the term "judgement". If a flying instructor tells a student that they are doing to teach them "judgement" then it causes offence and decreases the opportunities for learning. If a flying instructor tells someone that they are doing to teach them "risk management" then things go much better. It is better not to use the term "airmanship" and to use more specific terms, which can be operationalised, like "visual scan" or monitoring the radio." 

 

The same problem comes with blaming "inexperience". I have already remarked on your use of this term. My view is that, as Forrest Gump might have said, "Inexperience is as inexperience does". In other words, if I was flying a normal downwind and the tug pilot came within 30 m of me (after having probably seen me 🤪) then I was actually being more "experienced" that he was, regardless of our hours. 

 

If part of your job is communicating to others at Caboolture about safety then you need to get better at it. 

 

As for the timing. The incident occurred on Saturday 3 August 2019. It was reported either on that day or the 4th because I got a reply from the glider federation on the 5 th saying they were going to tell CASA. Had you begun at Caboolture yet? 

[APenNameAndThatA]

35 minutes ago, jackc said:

Well its simple for me, IF I have any doubt about mine or other people safety in a circuit, I will just call exiting the circuit at say 30 deg and wait away with some orbits and rejoin when ready.  I don’t care how long I am delayed…..it’s not a race to the ground.

Didn't exactly address what I said, did you? And, yes, I would do the same as you. The issue of something being someone's fault and the issue of avoiding a collision even if you have right of way are different issues, as my comment about agency vs. fault explains. 

[APenNameAndThatA]

30 minutes ago, Kyle Communications said:

I am always prepared to reliquish my right of way in a circuit..period

 

So is everybody. 🙄

[jackc]

5 minutes ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

Didn't exactly address what I said, did you? And, yes, I would do the same as you. The issue of something being someone's fault and the issue of avoiding a collision even if you have right of way are different issues, as my comment about agency vs. fault explains. 

You are dragging the whole thread out for your own perceived ‘win’. Just let me know when you are flying, I will stay on the ground that day 🙂 

[Kyle Communications]

I think its pointless to continue this conversation 

 

Oh as you say go back and read the previous posts and you will find the answer to your question

 

 

 

[turboplanner]

32 minutes ago, jackc said:

Well its simple for me, IF I have any doubt about mine or other people safety in a circuit, I will just call exiting the circuit at say 30 deg and wait away with some orbits and rejoin when ready.  I don’t care how long I am delayed…..it’s not a race to the ground.

I posted the Regulations so people could see the regulations and at least try to stop making fools of themseves, but they've just dug deeper graves.

 

At your stage of flying there's information and sensory overload; it's always exciting to hear the person switching from total thought flying to subconscious flying.

 

You could exit the ciruit, but then you might intefere with someone entering or leaving it, or you might smash into someone on a wider circuit than you. Don't forget that in the main circuit a high powered aircraft will get to 500 feet and turn onto crosswind fastest, so will turn earliest, it will climb to 1000 feet and turn downwind also fastest so its crosswind will be closest to the strip, downwind closest to the strip and it will cruise the first half of downwind fastest, but then it will slow with one stage of flaps to 90 kts and turn base at 90 degrees as do the others; so far its been a breeze but then aircraft start appearing from the right. The medium powered aicraft takes longer to get to 500 feet, so turns crosswind further out, and also turns downwind further out at 1000'. They also slow to90 kts with 1 stage of flap. The low powered aircraft, say C150 take even longer to get to 500 feet so turn crosswind much further down, and are now on quite a delayed timing compared to all the take off intervals, it takes forever to climb to 1000' when the turn downwind where their track is way out from the strip. They don't have to slow down, they are all doing 90. So you have this swirl of aircraft several lines wide flying rectangles at various speeds, and if you opt to spear off how do you pick which lane? Some are wrongly flying too low, some are wrongly flying too high, which doesn't matter to the ones in the circuit, but could to you. So, it may be necessary to spear out of the circuit but it may be safer so identify where the other aircraft are going to move to and adjust yourself. The same decision making applies when you are entering  a circuit. You wouldn't enter in front of a Baron if you were in a C150. You have around 40 knots adjustment to play with; I've regularly been on fullflaps and plenty of throttle to avoid running up the back of a slow aircraft when I knew there was space behind me, and then finish up not having to go round because I've bought enough space for the guy in front of me to slow down and exit the strip. I've been, once No5 on final, evenly spaced. 3 of us got in. I kept this out, so I didn't complicate things too much, but on top of that multi-lane string in the 1000' circuit, you could have Drifters and Thrusters doing the same in their 500' circuit which tey are required to maintain. They may be slow at their 67 kts, but they joing final at late final, coming in from the side, and if there's a turboprop coming in with a load of passengers he'll be out of sight in the 1500' circuit going at 90 degrees to you if you've flown in and are about to join. Hence I say it might not be a bad idea in this case if a few people opened up the document I posted.

 

[turboplanner]

17 minutes ago, Kyle Communications said:

I think its pointless to continue this conversation 

 

Oh as you say go back and read the previous posts and you will find the answer to your question

 

 

 

I'd suggest you read the regulations before giving him a flogging he doesn't deserve.

[jackc]

40 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

I posted the Regulations so people could see the regulations and at least try to stop making fools of themseves, but they've just dug deeper graves.

 

At your stage of flying there's information and sensory overload; it's always exciting to hear the person switching from total thought flying to subconscious flying.

 

You could exit the ciruit, but then you might intefere with someone entering or leaving it, or you might smash into someone on a wider circuit than you. Don't forget that in the main circuit a high powered aircraft will get to 500 feet and turn onto crosswind fastest, so will turn earliest, it will climb to 1000 feet and turn downwind also fastest so its crosswind will be closest to the strip, downwind closest to the strip and it will cruise the first half of downwind fastest, but then it will slow with one stage of flaps to 90 kts and turn base at 90 degrees as do the others; so far its been a breeze but then aircraft start appearing from the right. The medium powered aicraft takes longer to get to 500 feet, so turns crosswind further out, and also turns downwind further out at 1000'. They also slow to90 kts with 1 stage of flap. The low powered aircraft, say C150 take even longer to get to 500 feet so turn crosswind much further down, and are now on quite a delayed timing compared to all the take off intervals, it takes forever to climb to 1000' when the turn downwind where their track is way out from the strip. They don't have to slow down, they are all doing 90. So you have this swirl of aircraft several lines wide flying rectangles at various speeds, and if you opt to spear off how do you pick which lane? Some are wrongly flying too low, some are wrongly flying too high, which doesn't matter to the ones in the circuit, but could to you. So, it may be necessary to spear out of the circuit but it may be safer so identify where the other aircraft are going to move to and adjust yourself. The same decision making applies when you are entering  a circuit. You wouldn't enter in front of a Baron if you were in a C150. You have around 40 knots adjustment to play with; I've regularly been on fullflaps and plenty of throttle to avoid running up the back of a slow aircraft when I knew there was space behind me, and then finish up not having to go round because I've bought enough space for the guy in front of me to slow down and exit the strip. I've been, once No5 on final, evenly spaced. 3 of us got in. I kept this out, so I didn't complicate things too much, but on top of that multi-lane string in the 1000' circuit, you could have Drifters and Thrusters doing the same in their 500' circuit which tey are required to maintain. They may be slow at their 67 kts, but they joing final at late final, coming in from the side, and if there's a turboprop coming in with a load of passengers he'll be out of sight in the 1500' circuit going at 90 degrees to you if you've flown in and are about to join. Hence I say it might not be a bad idea in this case if a few people opened up the document I posted.

 

I am in the process of reading the document you posted….looks like good stuff.

Understand this….rigidly abiding by regulations does not always work.  Logic and commonsense are part of it.  IF everyone uses a radio properly it makes it a whole lot easier, I tend to think some pilots consider their radio a brown snake, they don’t want to touch it.  I had an instance where the Instructor got up me for what I did to avoid a situation to give an RPT 737 plenty of space on his straight in approach, I called an exit from my  downwind at 30 deg and flew some orbits while he landed.  Instructor said I had plenty of time to land ahead of him, I personally was not confident, so I did what I did…….in flying my orbits I i banked well aircraft well which exposed me better visually for others and myself, to see and avoid. After the RPT landed I rejoined the circuit.   Was I wrong in the regulations?  Don’t know, I simply did what I thought logical. I will listen all day to an experienced pilot as I need lots more knowledge than I have, I spend a lot of time studying but will never be perfect. Tell me I am wrong?  Fine, I will try harder to be better…….

[facthunter]

Taking a cautious way out can hardly be criticised legitimately.   Nev

[APenNameAndThatA]

1 hour ago, jackc said:

You are dragging the whole thread out for your own perceived ‘win’. Just let me know when you are flying, I will stay on the ground that day 🙂 

Yes, I am dragging the thread out for my own perceived win. I'm pretty sure that you and  Kyle and also dragged out the thread for your own perceived win. If either of those things were not true, the thread would have stopped. 

Edited October 12, 2022 by APenNameAndThatA

[APenNameAndThatA]

18 minutes ago, jackc said:

I am in the process of reading the document you posted….looks like good stuff.

Understand this….rigidly abiding by regulations does not always work.  Logic and commonsense are part of it.  IF everyone uses a radio properly it makes it a whole lot easier, I tend to think some pilots consider their radio a brown snake, they don’t want to touch it.  I had an instance where the Instructor got up me for what I did to avoid a situation to give an RPT 737 plenty of space on his straight in approach, I called an exit from my  downwind at 30 deg and flew some orbits while he landed.  Instructor said I had plenty of time to land ahead of him, I personally was not confident, so I did what I did…….in flying my orbits I i banked well aircraft well which exposed me better visually for others and myself, to see and avoid. After the RPT landed I rejoined the circuit.   Was I wrong in the regulations?  Don’t know, I simply did what I thought logical. I will listen all day to an experienced pilot as I need lots more knowledge than I have, I spend a lot of time studying but will never be perfect. Tell me I am wrong?  Fine, I will try harder to be better…….

Do you seriously think that anyone does not understand that rigidly adhering by regulations does not always work? Do you seriously think that anyone would not exit a circuit to avoid a collision? I would have hoped so, but here we are. 

Edited October 12, 2022 by APenNameAndThatA

[jackc]

I just posted MY opinion and some facts on a decision I made  in respect of a situation.  Call me wrong on it and I will try to do better ‘Chuck’ 🙂 

[jackc]

2 minutes ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

Do you seriously think that anyone thinks for a moment that rigidly adhering by regulations does not always work? Do you seriously think that anyone would not exit a circuit to avoid a collision? I would have hoped not, but here we all are. 

Some might say screw you, I have MORE engines and bigger wings than you 🙂 

[APenNameAndThatA]

3 minutes ago, jackc said:

I just posted MY opinion and some facts on a decision I made  in respect of a situation.  Call me wrong on it and I will try to do better ‘Chuck’ 🙂 

No one called you wrong. (And I got my negatives mixed up in the comment you responded to.) 

[turboplanner]

23 minutes ago, jackc said:

I am in the process of reading the document you posted….looks like good stuff.

Understand this….rigidly abiding by regulations does not always work.  Logic and commonsense are part of it.  IF everyone uses a radio properly it makes it a whole lot easier, I tend to think some pilots consider their radio a brown snake, they don’t want to touch it.  I had an instance where the Instructor got up me for what I did to avoid a situation to give an RPT 737 plenty of space on his straight in approach, I called an exit from my  downwind at 30 deg and flew some orbits while he landed.  Instructor said I had plenty of time to land ahead of him, I personally was not confident, so I did what I did…….in flying my orbits I i banked well aircraft well which exposed me better visually for others and myself, to see and avoid. After the RPT landed I rejoined the circuit.   Was I wrong in the regulations?  Don’t know, I simply did what I thought logical. I will listen all day to an experienced pilot as I need lots more knowledge than I have, I spend a lot of time studying but will never be perfect. Tell me I am wrong?  Fine, I will try harder to be better…….

  You are visualising a very busy airfield? with at least 6 to 12 aircraft in the circuit and having to adjust for two, three or more around you on final alone? That's what we are talking about and more specifically Apen flying the downwind leg in his correct track.

In your example at your stage of flyinf, there's nothing wrong with getting the hell out of there rather than being forced into judgement calls you haven't yet learnt to make, so lets's not get mixed up, but you need to lose the "abiding by regulations does not always work" because plenty of pilots opt to take the lazy path and get themselves into a bad situation later in their career. A busy circuit like Caboolture or the city circuits is relying on you tostay in uour slot; he may have judged his entry to come down into the circuit comfortable ahead of you or behind you. You didn't see him out there coming in from the side, but if you learn to adjust your speed on the person ahead, then you become a reliable point in the circulating traffic. 

[jackc]

You can know all the regulations in the World, IF pilots don’t use the radios properly as is mandatory……then it just makes more pressure on other pilots.  I have a big deal about radios, all my life starting in my Military days, and 30 years in the business as well.  On top of that I have no desire to fly in/out of busy airports, will stick with bush ALAs and remote places, where possible. Upgrade my radio comms to the best I can have, use ADS-B ECD and fly carefully with my own risk assessments, maybe not totally to the regulations.  Anyone for some full moon midnight VFR 🙂 

[turboplanner]

8 minutes ago, jackc said:

You can know all the regulations in the World, IF pilots don’t use the radios properly as is mandatory……then it just makes more pressure on other pilots.  I have a big deal about radios, all my life starting in my Military days, and 30 years in the business as well.  On top of that I have no desire to fly in/out of busy airports, will stick with bush ALAs and remote places, where possible. Upgrade my radio comms to the best I can have, use ADS-B ECD and fly carefully with my own risk assessments, maybe not totally to the regulations.  Anyone for some full moon midnight VFR 🙂 

Well you can see what I mean regarding radios and you don't intend flying into busy airfields so you don't have the same unfixed issue as Apen.

 

[APenNameAndThatA]

Another thing I should mention for completeness. It is safest when people do what they are *expected* to do. For example, I lost all the electrics (radio and transponder) in my aircraft when I was doing circuits, and it would have been dangerous to reach around and get my handheld radio. I considered leaving the circuit and getting the radio but decided to just do what the tower (Class D) would have expected me to do. I completed the circuit and taxied (without ground clearance) and parked and called the tower. It was a non event to them. 

 

An aircraft in the circuit making way for an aircraft joining the circuit would be weird. Making way without co-ordinating it with all the other people in the circuit would have been fully weird.

 

So, anybody reading this thread, please don’t get the idea that altering your circuit to make way for someone entering the circuit is superior airmanship. It would be dangerous and dumb. The aircraft joining the circuit would be expecting you to fly a standard circuit, and that expectation would guide that they would do to best position their own aircraft. If you co-ordinate on the radio, and don’t mess things up for even more people, that would be different; but not possible in a busy circuit. 

 

[turboplanner]

6 hours ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

Another thing I should mention for completeness. It is safest when people do what they are *expected* to do. For example, I lost all the electrics (radio and transponder) in my aircraft when I was doing circuits, and it would have been dangerous to reach around and get my handheld radio. I considered leaving the circuit and getting the radio but decided to just do what the tower (Class D) would have expected me to do. I completed the circuit and taxied (without ground clearance) and parked and called the tower. It was a non event to them. 

 

An aircraft in the circuit making way for an aircraft joining the circuit would be weird. Making way without co-ordinating it with all the other people in the circuit would have been fully weird.

 

So, anybody reading this thread, please don’t get the idea that altering your circuit to make way for someone entering the circuit is superior airmanship. It would be dangerous and dumb. The aircraft joining the circuit would be expecting you to fly a standard circuit, and that expectation would guide that they would do to best position their own aircraft. If you co-ordinate on the radio, and don’t mess things up for even more people, that would be different; but not possible in a busy circuit. 

 

Correct; this may not make a lot of sense to someone who flies at an airstrip way out in the country where there might be one flight a week, but the above action would have been the safest at places like Archerfield, Bankstown, Moorabbin or where there were multiple aircraft in the circuit.

 

Unfortunately Qwerty's comments have been cleaned from this site or we would have known what Caboolture looked like when he flew in from inerstate. At any time in any cicuit a cross-country aircraft leaving its home state 5 hours ago could have dropped in to refuel at an airfield 2 hours away and a tired pilot comes in expecting all aircraft in your circuit to be following correct procedures. 

[facthunter]

Correct circuit procedures are there for the purpose of having an orderly way of getting on to final and landing, safely. Radio and it's proper use is an essential function of the see and be seen  process which is at best an inexact science. The best and most effective way to slow your arrival to over the fence is to extend downwind. You don't have a great range of safe airspeed 'variation" to make a large change.  Over done this will afect traffic behind you and make the circuit too large. The risk with radio includes incorrect responses and Clutter (Talking too much) and being over other people, wrong frequencies, volume too low etc.. Having some "TOWER " function would be a great help and money saving is the reason we don't have so much of it. Failing that be aware of safe ways of recovering a situation. Height is the most reliable method of separation. I say this in a general sense not as a fix all RULE.   Our current   situation is far from orderly or safe.. but I can't see it changing much unfortunately,  as they say, anytime soon so extra vigilance Peeps and be ready for the unexpected. Nev