RA-Aus Don't Know How to Do "Occurrence Management

[Blueadventures]

25 minutes ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

It was reported. 

Perhaps write to them with a copy of your original report and ask for a copy of their outcome / findings.

[jackc]

2 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

In the flight planning did they touch on Performance and Operations or just the pre-flight things?

 

Pre flight stuff but there is more to come I believe 🙂 

[turboplanner]

2 minutes ago, jackc said:

Pre flight stuff but there is more to come I believe 🙂 

I think what's happened in RAA is the growth at the faster and bigger end has caught them by surprise. Reading a Bob Tait book was OK for a Drifter spending 30 minutes getting to a breakfast, but the 100 Kt plastics are capable of longer trip legs, so RAA probably should have upgraded to the GA Syllabus. It's not as if it's hard to do the PPL modules, particularly when a few students come along at night courses and start asking questions. Performance and Operations is very empowering because you calculate the perfornance at various altitudes, and see that your take off roll might have to be early morning, how much fuel you burn on the climb, then on the route, then on the descent, so you start to manage fuel much better, and so on. It would be good if they could get something going on the modules, because you're so much better off if you go for an early morning fly and fog rolls in behind you. You already have your alternative, know your endurance etc so a much more relaxed change of plan.

[facthunter]

Proper Planning was always a AUF, RAA thing. GPS has confused the issue.

PPPPPP started back then. Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance.. Pilot's have got to recognise the need and advantages. Google earth is like being there before and MET? I've NEVER stopped urging people to UNDERSTAND it. Deciding holding/alternates is hardly sufficient wnen you need to know how fogs form and dew point  Mixing of air masses  frontal effects etc. Nev

[kiwiaviator]

I have always maintained that gravity does not care what type of aviation licence you possess. While RA allows more people to experience flight at a lower cost, the base knowledge must be the same as GA.

[facthunter]

I don't believe that's good enough either and climate events will get worse so it will have to cope with changing circumstances or have more incidents. There's times to not fly and they must be recognised.MORE accurately. Nev

[Kyle Communications]

Apen I am not saying its all your fault...but good Airmanship you would have known he was there and made a early choice to delay your circuit or go around. I dont know what you heard or what you saw but to be honest thinking you have the right of way no matter what the circumstances is a false idea. Its no different when driving on the road...I have the right of way and I am going to drive straight into the accident I dont care ...thats what I am saying. You should always be ready to modify any approach or plan at any time. Crying about it after the fact is of course up to you and how you do that is totally up to you and your right but its a bit hard to do when your in a burning hunk of wreckage at the end of the strip. Sorry to be blunt about this but it is 100% up to you to take all factors into consideration before you make any decisions. Sometimes shit happens and well thats the luck of the draw and out of your hands and then its up to the authorites to apportion blame

[Ironpot]

Would anybody know - which is the busier; Archerfield or YCAB?

 

just curious 

[Kyle Communications]

Archerfield has much more commercial aviation...movement though would be sort of similar now maybe a bit less at Ycab

 

[turboplanner]

26 minutes ago, Kyle Communications said:

Apen I am not saying its all your fault...but good Airmanship you would have known he was there and made a early choice to delay your circuit or go around. I dont know what you heard or what you saw but to be honest thinking you have the right of way no matter what the circumstances is a false idea. Its no different when driving on the road...I have the right of way and I am going to drive straight into the accident I dont care ...thats what I am saying. You should always be ready to modify any approach or plan at any time. Crying about it after the fact is of course up to you and how you do that is totally up to you and your right but its a bit hard to do when your in a burning hunk of wreckage at the end of the strip. Sorry to be blunt about this but it is 100% up to you to take all factors into consideration before you make any decisions. Sometimes shit happens and well thats the luck of the draw and out of your hands and then its up to the authorites to apportion blame

Are you actually saying it's OK for a following aircraft to come up and land on the grass on the RHS of a low hours pilot who is landing on the strip? Is there something I've missed?

[Kyle Communications]

No I am not saying that at all but it can happen due to the type of ops done. Mixing so many types of aircraft at the one place can be challenging. But I believe its up to the pilot to make sure he is safe with his operation and that means to take into account everyone elses actions ... 

Turbs when was the last time you actually went and flew at a airfield let alone a busy airfield. You like to sit there and pontificate all the time but when did you actually participate as PIC

 

[APenNameAndThatA]

1 hour ago, Kyle Communications said:

Apen I am not saying its all your fault...but good Airmanship you would have known he was there and made a early choice to delay your circuit or go around. I dont know what you heard or what you saw but to be honest thinking you have the right of way no matter what the circumstances is a false idea. Its no different when driving on the road...I have the right of way and I am going to drive straight into the accident I dont care ...thats what I am saying. You should always be ready to modify any approach or plan at any time. Crying about it after the fact is of course up to you and how you do that is totally up to you and your right but its a bit hard to do when your in a burning hunk of wreckage at the end of the strip. Sorry to be blunt about this but it is 100% up to you to take all factors into consideration before you make any decisions. Sometimes shit happens and well thats the luck of the draw and out of your hands and then its up to the authorites to apportion blame

😆

[turboplanner]

46 minutes ago, Kyle Communications said:

No I am not saying that at all but it can happen due to the type of ops done. Mixing so many types of aircraft at the one place can be challenging. But I believe its up to the pilot to make sure he is safe with his operation and that means to take into account everyone elses actions ... 

Turbs when was the last time you actually went and flew at a airfield let alone a busy airfield. You like to sit there and pontificate all the time but when did you actually participate as PIC

 

Not surprising the name is coming up in discussions.

[APenNameAndThatA]

3 hours ago, Blueadventures said:

Perhaps write to them with a copy of your original report and ask for a copy of their outcome / findings.

I'm pretty sure those were the findings. You know, the ones they changed when I complained. Maybe there were more that did not end up on my RA-Aus page. 

[aro]

I hate the word airmanship.... 99% of the time it can be defined as "the piloting skills a person believes they have that make them superior to the average pilot".

 

We fly a circuit to land because that means we know where to look for traffic, and gives everyone a chance to spot other traffic and adjust spacing etc.

 

If you have a lot of traffic, it makes it critical that people fly a proper circuit, setting up and maintaining a sequence. You can't afford to have people doing their own thing. A tug pilot trying to get down fast just doesn't work if you have a lot of traffic. It doesn't matter how experienced they are, they increase the risk for everyone.

 

Sounds like there are 2 possible solutions at Caboolture.

1) Decrease the amount of traffic

2) Require people to fly proper circuits, without cutting in etc.

 

Telling people to be aware and take all factors into consideration is useless.

[Kyle Communications]

Decrease the amount of traffic is the preferred option for me. Commercial training ops has gone out of control to the point it is destroying the runways. The amount of money we have spent just trying to keep the runways operational is crazy. 06/24 has been closed for 6 months due to the damage being so severe that we have had to spend heaps to try to get it back servicable..which hopefully will be towards the end of this summer.

Good luck with number 2 anywhere. Pilots dont look at the Ops manual anymore or even learn what they have to or are required to do. They dont seem to give a crap anymore. We have tried to get it better. The only way is to take drastic action which I believe will soon come and that is to ban pilots who do not follow the rules for a period of time. It will be hard to police but it has to start somewhere. 

This is what I call Airmanship..knowing the rules of the airfield and always making sure you know where everyoine is and allowing for the idiot in the cicuit. There has been a definate reduction in this ethos in the past 12 years I have been flying there.

The tug issue ...well I think thats another story that archoms razor would be the solver

 

[APenNameAndThatA]

33 minutes ago, Kyle Communications said:

Decrease the amount of traffic is the preferred option for me. Commercial training ops has gone out of control to the point it is destroying the runways. The amount of money we have spent just trying to keep the runways operational is crazy. 06/24 has been closed for 6 months due to the damage being so severe that we have had to spend heaps to try to get it back servicable..which hopefully will be towards the end of this summer.

Good luck with number 2 anywhere. Pilots dont look at the Ops manual anymore or even learn what they have to or are required to do. They dont seem to give a crap anymore. We have tried to get it better. The only way is to take drastic action which I believe will soon come and that is to ban pilots who do not follow the rules for a period of time. It will be hard to police but it has to start somewhere. 

This is what I call Airmanship..knowing the rules of the airfield and always making sure you know where everyoine is and allowing for the idiot in the cicuit. There has been a definate reduction in this ethos in the past 12 years I have been flying there.

The tug issue ...well I think thats another story that archoms razor would be the solver

 

Follow the rules, like giving way to aircraft already in the circuit? I can’t believe I’m having this convo with someone who runs an aerodrome. 

Edited October 11, 2022 by APenNameAndThatA

[Kyle Communications]

Apen...do you really believe I have any real control over any pilots decisions while flying anywhere. At any specific point in time its the numbskull behind the wheel or the stick that is responsible.

If you cant decide that just because you may have the right of way someone else believes they have as well and both of you dont want to make sure you are flying safely then dont fly. Its simple

Rules are rules and most people follow them but some dont or wont. Your just going to have to live with it or start a long paper trail to the authorities and see how you get on.

Oh I am only one of 10. 

 

 

 

[Garfly]

4 minutes ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

Follow the rules, like giving way to aircraft already in the circuit? I can’t believe I’m having this convo with someone who runs an aerodrome. 

PenName, you're jousting with a straw-man who's not there. Mark is saying no such thing. 

 

Anyway, on the subject of experts disagreeing on circuit etiquette and "airmanship" take a look at this recent hard-talk between two prominent YT instructors in the US - Dan Gryder and Jason Miller.  The relevant bit is from 07:00 to 36:00.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

Garfly...perfect video..thankyou the point being "both being DEAD right"

 

[jackc]

1 hour ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

Follow the rules, like giving way to aircraft already in the circuit? I can’t believe I’m having this convo with someone who runs an aerodrome. 

But forcing right of way can be disastrous on the road and in the sky and in this case no one crashed, just write it down to experience?

[turboplanner]

Attached are Civil Aviation Safety Regulations (Plain English) Dec 2, 2021

This includes radio mandatory broadcast points.

A slower aircraft on track downwind is not "forcing" right of way.

There are ways of passing which are safe; remember you can join the circuit on downwind

You don't have to "sit" on the slower aircraft while you are doing it, but that's often done to "make a point" along with caustic complaints on the radio, usually from twin pilots.

 

WX00202.pdf

Edited October 11, 2022 by turboplanner

[turboplanner]

Caboolture was reported as having 200 movements per day.

 

Moorabbin, in its single runway days had 896 movements per day

Today with two runways it has 404 movements per runway per day, so 2 x 404 potential issues plus the potential for a pilot to overshoot on base into the other stream, or land on the wrong runway.

 

Moorabbin's advantages are:

It has Tower Operators to help sort out the aircraft.

It only handles GA, Helicopters plus occasional qualified RA.

 

Caboolture has to contend with GA, Helicopters plus Gliders, plus RA across its spectrum.

[APenNameAndThatA]

On 19/7/2022 at 5:45 PM, Kyle Communications said:

Your "incident" most likely was pretty much due to your inexperience flying the aircraft and also flying at a airfield that has many ops and also different type of aircraft. I would be very confident that the tug pilot knew exactly where you were.

 

 

Everybody, the above comment, which was Kyle’s original comment to me is what I am objecting to. He said that the incident was “pretty much due to your inexperience”. Since that has been shown to be incorrect, he has changed his argument to saying that it was still my fault because even though I had right of way was still my fault because I should have been on the lookout for an aircraft approaching from above and behind me and seen it before it got up beside me. It’s a way of backing down without admitting that you’ve backed down or were wrong. 

 

If two aircraft collide both the pilots die, even the one with right of way. I get that. Now I’d like to invite you all to reread Kyle’s original comment to me. See the difference? 

[Kyle Communications]

Apen I hold to my original comment

Your such a expert pilot then that your never wrong and you do everything perfectly correct after what.... less than 200 hrs?

I make mistakes too. I have had several close calls there. Infact on this forum a long way back you may even see my posts somewhere where I actually posted them here. One particular one was with a gyro decending on top of me. I thought I was doing everything correctly and had to take drastic evasion late downwind. Either he didnt make a radio call or I didnt hear him earlier in his joining to the circuit. When I heard a call that made me think he must be near me I looked and couldnt see him until I looked above me and he was decending direct on top of me. I had only about 60 hours of time and I put that down to me not taking enough notice of my situational awareness and that taught me a lot more about flying than anything. When I am joining the circuit I am hyper vigilant coming into the circuit and during the circuit now and always am.

My mistake was I was not being super vigilant at a time of flight that you need to be